Mary Sue- Not sure I understand

[GMforPowergamers]

No, it's Batman as Deus Ex Machina. The characteristic of 'powerful intervention' doesn't constitute any coherent sense of 'Mary Sue' I've ever read.

Ok, maybe my example wasn't the best...

He was told to do so by TSR, a fact that's well known by now. You haven't the least reason to think he's Ed in the Realms other than that it's what you heard. If you respect Ed as you say, please don't call him a liar.

did he do it...Yes
why did he do it...to make money (aka the sma e reason I go to my job)
I am not calling him a liar...I am saying he did X and X fits mary sue...weather TSR made him write a mary sue character or not is not what I am argueing here...
Infact I have no doubt that his orginal idea and wha we have seen in 20 years are very diffrent...

However why he is a mary sue is not the same as if he is a mary sue...

I don't know where you got this idea from, but have you noticed how you stick to it irrespective of how many times I dispel your mistaken or misconceived 'evidence' (including the bit I didn't quote, which we discussed before on Wizards.com)?

look, I am by no means an expert ont he subject of the realms or ELminster...and I go by 2nd and 3rd hand stories...and cons and rule books...that is the problem...

But yes since Elminster has by many diffrent people been catagorized as a 'ladies man' and the only person in this thread to dispute it tells us how easy to verfy his monogomy is...but give no book or web site to link to...

Neither is it breaking the fourth wall, since the very premise of the Forgotten Realms -- the source of its name, the hidden motivator of many of its events -- is that it's one of many worlds in a Moorcockian multiverse, once broadly linked to Earth.

Talking to your own writer is the text book defination again... how it is done doesn't matter. It is still breaking the 4th wall, becuse he is interacting with ed himself in the book...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So Kirk is a Mary Sue in Generations?

I think he was getting close...but it was handled well and avoided...I will admit somepeople see that diffrently...

They're not too good. They're heroes. They're only too good compared to the soulless post-modern trash that academic literature passes off as protagonists.

or when they show up in said other protagonists stories

You can't have it both ways. Accusing an author of writing a Mary Sue is tantamount to calling him a looser writing his own wish fulfillment.

it is you adding in the looser part not me...but yes I think there was most likely some wish fulfillment there...

At least that's what it means in fanfiction, which is the only place the term has any real meaning. Since Ed Greenwood developed the character, it's not fan fiction. So calling Elminster a Mary Sue is nonsensical and insulting to Mr. Greenwood.

oh...so now you try to turn this into an insult out right... I respect ed greenwood, but that doesn't mean I respect every thing he has ever done...

Not a fanfiction.

also not a stand alone story...

I get it, you don't like Elminster for whatever reason and you choose to express it by insulting Ed Greenwood.

yes I must really hate the guy that made this setting...and must be insulting him by dislikeing a charcter he has only had some control over for years...

Honestly Elminster seems no worse then most of the classical heroes (Heracles, Persius, etc) or Batman or Kirk, or any other hero.

MUCH worse he is in a role playing game not just a novel... waht part of he is an NPC not a PC do you not get???

 

[Lancelot]

I understand that the original definition of Mary Sue has something to do with the character being a stand-in for the author, but I think the term has evolved to the point where it includes (for many people, including myself) an idealized character that is so awesome that no other character can top it. It's sort of like "My fictional creation is bigger than your fictional creation...".

Given that, and I don't think Ed Greenwood is necessarily to blame for this, but Elminster is absolutely the poster-child for Mary Sue-ness.

• As statted, he's ludicrously powerful and adept. He is a little bit of everything, and (despite weak explanations why he doesn't just 'port in and take out every major bad guy on the planet) he can take nearly anything on paper.
• Mystra is an ex-lover. Regardless of his other bedroom conquests, that's... quite a claim. And he's a Chosen, as well.
• All of the women he's been with are described as having power and beauty on a goddess-like scale. I guess they've got to match his power to maintain some level of equity, but he's not much of a looker. I think I'd like Elminster more if his partner appeared more age-appropriate, but I guess grandmothers would look odd in silky revealing robes...
• He can outwit or out-sass gods and archdevils alike, to say nothing of poor incompetent super-villains like Manshoon and Sammaster.
• He's everywhere. I hated seeing him the first time while playing Baldur's Gate, and I *really* hated seeing him the 3rd or 4th time (...where, like most portrayals of Elminster, he pops up to say something mysterious, implying that he knows so much more than you, and then vanishes without really doing anything meaninfgul). He's just... smug. And irritating.
• The constant positioning of Elminster as the uber-wizard, not just of the Realms, but of all D&D worlds. The old Wizards Three articles in Dragon usually had Elminster portrayed as more knowledgeable (or at least more laid-back and in control) than Mordenkainen, and Dalamar came off as a punk-@ss kid by comparison.

I live for the day that Mordenkainen feeds Elminster to the Altar of the Elder Elemental God. Unfortunately, I suspect that Mord would need Raistlin, Gandalf, Merlin and Lady Vol simply just to take Elminster down for a couple rounds, and he'd probably just give the Elder Eye a wedgie (and sleep with Iggwilv) for their trouble...

 

[Faraer]

Aus_Snow, that's a nasty bit of innuendo you've got there. Are you going to leave it at that or tell us what you're talking about?

look, I am by no means an expert ont he subject of the realms or ELminster...and I go by 2nd and 3rd hand stories...and cons and rule books...that is the problem...

OK. But in the many things I'm not an expert on, I don't usually insist my second-hand ideas must be right.

But yes since Elminster has by many diffrent people been catagorized as a 'ladies man' and the only person in this thread to dispute it tells us how easy to verfy his monogomy is...but give no book or web site to link to...

No one's disputed it, just cited hearsay. There may be an explicit statement somewhere -- though I remember The Seven Sisters says he's her chosen consort -- but the point is (gods, this is a sordid conversation) there are no mentions or suggestions in print of Elminster having sex with anyone else from 1357 DR on.

As for the 'he's so lusty' thing being an act, see, for instance, here. I thought it was obvious from the books, but clearly not to everyone. It's used as a footnote to the Realms' overall treatment of influence-through-manipulation.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Aus_Snow, that's a nasty bit of innuendo you've got there. Are you going to leave it at that or tell us what you're talking about?

It's not nasty at all, coming directly from trusted sources as it does. Any nastiness involved is none of my doing, let's just say.

However, *no*, I am certainly not going to go into any detail here. As far as I'm aware, this place is not right for such discussions. Or rather, such discussions are verboten.

That's not my call, so if it's a problem for you, please take it up with those who have decreed this to be so. If you must take it up with anyone. Thanks.

 

[Dausuul]

I live for the day that Mordenkainen feeds Elminster to the Altar of the Elder Elemental God. Unfortunately, I suspect that Mord would need Raistlin, Gandalf, Merlin and Lady Vol simply just to take Elminster down for a couple rounds, and he'd probably just give the Elder Eye a wedgie (and sleep with Iggwilv) for their trouble...

Eh, it's all a question of what world it takes place in. The trick is to lure Elminster out of his own world to a world where his author can no longer protect him.

Obviously, Elminster needs somebody to talk him into going into OotS-land to save that hapless adventuring party from that wicked lich Xykon. Of course, as soon as Elminster leaves Toril, he passes out of Ed Greenwood's sphere of influence and into Rich Burlew's; at which point Xykon's plot protection takes over, along with his talent for demolishing overconfident wizards.

...Y'know, I just made a decision. In my reality, Dorukan was Elminster in disguise. He's now trapped in a small black gem in Xykon's back pocket.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

As for the 'he's so lusty' thing being an act, see, for instance, here. I thought it was obvious from the books, but clearly not to everyone. It's used as a footnote to the Realms' overall treatment of influence-through-manipulation.

did you read the answer...it is no answer at all

I can't say for sure, because I've never peeked. :}

Yet let's go a little beyond what I (and other
writers) have thus far set down in print. El and Storm
have kissed, cuddled, and embraced many times as
adults, and of course El bathed and changed and
dressed (and made clothes for, and even did surgery
on) Storm as an infant, child, young thing, and young
woman. They have both been naked, together, as adults,
in a casual, easy manner, unembarrassed and familiar.
Like sword-comrades or family or ... very old lovers
or a married couple. Hmm.

it was a very good way to not commit one way or te other though...my hat goes off to him on awsome double speak (((And I mean that really not sarcastic)))

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Eh, it's all a question of what world it takes place in. The trick is to lure Elminster out of his own world to a world where his author can no longer protect him.

Obviously, Elminster needs somebody to talk him into going into OotS-land to save that hapless adventuring party from that wicked lich Xykon. Of course, as soon as Elminster leaves Toril, he passes out of Ed Greenwood's sphere of influence and into Rich Burlew's; at which point Xykon's plot protection takes over, along with his talent for demolishing overconfident wizards.

...Y'know, I just made a decision. In my reality, Dorukan was Elminster in disguise. He's now trapped in a small black gem in Xykon's back pocket.

can someone write this fanfic please....


extra points if at diffrent points of the battle BOTH characters do the "Pro tip" thing...

 

[Lancelot]

I'd like to add that Elminster's monogamy (or lack thereof) seems like a bit of a red herring to me. Most people in real-life are non-monogamous (at least, before they're married - and I don't think Elminster is married, true?). The same is true of many fictional characters.

However, Elminster is portrayed as an elderly pipe-smoking fellow in thick red robes. And he's pulling the hotties. Check out the usual portrayal of the Simbul, or Mystra, the Seven Sisters, etc. It's very Hugh Hefner... which is what disappoints me. All these significant female role models... and they're attacted to the hairy, tobacco-smelling old guy with 30+ levels in 4 different classes and the biggest spell book in the land.

Driz'zt wishes he saw that kind of action. Eternally young elven looks, athletic, non-smoker, likes cats...

 

[Krensky]

Talking to your own writer is the text book defination again... how it is done doesn't matter. It is still breaking the 4th wall, becuse he is interacting with ed himself in the book...

No, it's a type of third person limited narration. Technically, the fourth wall concept only applies to theater (and by extension cinema, radioplays, and teleplays). In a novel, breaking the fourth wall would involve the character revealing that he knows he's fictional, living in a fictional world. To my understanding, Elminster shows up, tells 'Ed' some stories, drinks his beer, and leaves. At least that was the vibe I got in the FR products that mentioned it.

it is you adding in the looser part not me...but yes I think there was most likely some wish fulfillment there...

oh...so now you try to turn this into an insult out right... I respect ed greenwood, but that doesn't mean I respect every thing he has ever done...

Calling a work a Mary Sue is insulting and implies you consider the author a hack and a looser. If that is not you opinion of Mr. Greenwood, find another pejorative.

yes I must really hate the guy that made this setting...and must be insulting him by dislikeing a charcter he has only had some control over for years...

That's what Mary Sue means. Calling Elminster a Mary Sue carries with it the implication that you think Greenwood is a pathetic looser. If you don't feel that way, find a useful critical phrase to describe Elminster.

MUCH worse he is in a role playing game not just a novel... waht part of he is an NPC not a PC do you not get???

Wait, were we discussing Greenwood as an author or a DM?