Mary Sue- Not sure I understand

[S'mon]

What are you basing the 'steals the limelight' claim on?

Ed's accounts of his GMing of his own Dalelands campaign that I've read, when thinking about running FR. If it carries forward into actual published adventures, that's even worse.

 

[S'mon]

I really don't understand why you give credence to the self-insertion thing.

A self-insertion character is actually very common in fiction, and not necessarily bad. Frodo appears to be Tolkien's self-insertion character, but not a wish-fulfilment character. Conan is a wish-fulfilment character, but IMO REH pulls it off, because REH-Conan is not invincible and even spends much of his adventures running away from the monsters. Marvel's version of Conan ("No man is his equal!") can become annoying, though. For me, Edgar Rice Burrough's heroes like Tarzan & John Carter of Mars are good example of ones who just cross the line. Pastiche characters like Tarl Cabot of Gor veer way over the line. For me El is up there with Tarl, although being a genial free-love hippy rather than B-D fetishist is somewhat less horrible I guess.

 

[vagabundo]

Elminister might not be a big player in adventures, but he is prevalent in FR accessories and supplements. And, it seems to me, is an alter-ego for Ed himself in many cases.

A self-insertion character is actually very common in fiction, and not necessarily bad. Frodo appears to be Tolkien's self-insertion character, but not a wish-fulfilment character. Conan is a wish-fulfilment character, but IMO REH pulls it off, because REH-Conan is not invincible and even spends much of his adventures running away from the monsters. Marvel's version of Conan ("No man is his equal!") can become annoying, though. For me, Edgar Rice Burrough's heroes like Tarzan & John Carter of Mars are good example of ones who just cross the line. Pastiche characters like Tarl Cabot of Gor veer way over the line. For me El is up there with Tarl, although being a genial free-love hippy rather than B-D fetishist is somewhat less horrible I guess.

I think your spot on with this.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Elminster is not a Mary Sue.

He is not a fanfic character slotted in by the fanfic author that overshadows the characters in the source material and is used as wish-fulfillment by the author.

He is however:

• A creepy author-identified character. Elminster is a certain avatar of Ed in someways. Hearing about ANY sexual exploits is creepy.
• He is a Kwizach-Dragon-Who-Lived. Too much "awesome" packed together.
• He is used in a Mary Sue-ish manner (upstaging the protagonists) by many bad FR DMs.

He comes VERY close to Mary Sue, but not exactly.

 

[rounser]

Ed can come across as a bit pervy at times*, and Elminster is cast as a meddling deus ex machina DMPC, and narrator. But I don't think all DMPCs are power trips for the DM. Elminster often shows up in a way that keeps the story going (e.g. heal the PCs, distract the King, give them a lead), much as this is frowned upon.

I think the fact that FR is presented as Elminster telling "Ed of the Greenwood" about the Realms leaves it pretty explicit that Ed sees him as a character seperate to himself. The pervy stuff seeps into FR when Ed is involved, so it is no surprise that Elminster has had some of that written into him. And Ed loves his archmages, and it's obvious that Elminster is something of a Gandalf clone...

So...

Pervy? Check. Has a deity for a lover.
Powerful? Check. Archmage, Gandalf clone.
Deus ex machina? Check. DMPC, again related to being a Gandalf clone.
Narrator? Check, but lost this role to Volo to an extent.

Proxy for the author?

Possible but debatable, given that the 4th wall is explicitly broken in a way that suggests that this is not the case (i.e. he is written as hanging out with the author. On Earth. Why bother having El have somewhat alien tastes that don't match Ed's unless he was imagining him as a character seperate to himself?).

And he's not a fanfic. Remember that Elminster's original published role outside of short stories and Ed's campaign was as this character who talked about a bunch of magic books in Dragon magazine. So he's the FR narrator. But he's far from top dog in pre-spellnonsense FR.

Which raises the question: Is Gandalf a Mary-Sue?

*: Not sure if this is Ed's "fault", but rather a reflection that a fully realised fantasy world might have more sex references in it than people would be comfortable having in their games. Still, don't have to dwell on it.

 

[jensun]

No, the Simbul was raised by Oraumae of Rashemen (The Seven Sisters p. 8). Why do you think you were so sure of this mistaken point?

Its mentioned in one of the collected stories FR anthology novels.

 

[kenmarable]

See, I was under the impression that a true Mary Sue can't be the protagonist of his own story; A Mary Sue is someone who either one-ups the main character OR is overall better than an ensemble cast. For example; Conan would never be a Mary Sue because HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE THAT AWESOME! Now, if I introduced a Barbarian-chieftain into Conan mythos who was a better fighter, lover, tactician,and leader than Conan, HE'D be the Mary Sue, since Conan's supposed to be the hero.

There is also a good argument whether or not an author can "Mary Sue" his own work; this mostly stems from Harry Potter discussions on whether Hermione is a Mary Sue for JKR. Some say yes because she's clearly better at EVERYTHING than Harry is, while others say she's supposed to be better to compensate for Ron being rather inept (and to make Harry seem grounded/normal by comparison). It is widely accepted that OTHER authors can certainly Mary Sue a work, even if it IS cannon (Mara Jade).

Got it, the "better than Dread Pirate Roberts" clarified the definition for me. Both are annoying character types, but being the spy who can outsmart James Bond, the barbarian that spares Conan's life on a whim, etc. makes sense to me now. Thanks!

 

[Umbran]

However, *no*, I am certainly not going to go into any detail here. As far as I'm aware, this place is not right for such discussions. Or rather, such discussions are verboten.

Well, then you shouldn't have brought it up in the first place, now should you?

This, "I can't talk about it here, because it might be sordid, but I have it from trusted sources" stuff, is really shabby. You do realize that there's an actual human being there, and you're suggesting things about his personal life? That sounds like a cool thing to do, or something?

How about this thread continue with a higher sense of class than that from this point on? You know, respect for our fellow human beings, and all that...

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I think the most important thing about "Mary Sues" is that they ruin a setting by their presence. Conan, for example, doesn't ruin Hyboria, he enlivens it.

I disagree, the important thing about Mary Sues is that they overshadow the protaganist. So it is relatively easy to have one in a fanfic, where a complete unknown overshadows the canonical protagonist, wheither Kirk in Star Trek or Buffy in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
It is a bit harder to have a Mary Sue in an original work unless you set up a protagonist and then undermine them by having some secondary character do all the ass kicking.

I don't really see how you can have a Mary Sue in a setting, unless it is an uber DMPC that waltzes in and over shadows the party.

Elminster is a different kind of beast, imho, he is really a perament Deux ex machine, waiting to be invoked by any DM or writer who need an out for the heros right now.

 

[avin]

Don't read any FR novels.

All I know is known by the RPG books and I have something like a hate for Elminster and Drizzt.

In some ways, yes, they are Mary Sues. Everytime E. showed up on Baldur's Gate, like knowing toooooooo muuuuuuuch more than me I wondered why couldn't I kill him.

I think it's easier to like characters more "human" such as Han Solo, Deckard, Phillip Marlowe than "the great granny lover of realms" ... but heck, if Elminster was like Bukowski's Dirty Old Man I would be a fan