Why I think you should try 4e (renamed)

[EroGaki]

SO now your argument is that handwaving is the same as creating a PrC and creating requirements no one can attain at the moment... now who's jumping through hoops?

Unless of course their PC dies and they create one born and raised on the Iron Coast. Really we can do this all day, but it seems like this is just you avoiding the fact that there is a difference between creating an actual PrC and handwaving an effect.

This.

Yes, you can certainly do that. But if you do go down the road of making it a PrC-based ability (rather than just assigning a number because you're the DM) and make it just slightly less exclusive, then you can have adventures where the swashbuckler PC is trying to bribe/cajole/trick his way into the pirate community to learn these awesome skills... in some games, that would be a derailment of the plot, in others it could become the plot.

As opposed to flat bonuses per se, the things that explain bonuses -- PrCs, feats, weapon mastery (BECMI), items, etc. -- all offer potential for roleplaying, not just mechanical advantage (which unfortunately is how they are most often used/viewed IME).

And this.

Well, it's a matter of perspective. For some DMs (and some moods for some DMs that do it different ways at other times ), "playing by the same rules the players do" is something to be aspired to and enjoyed.

As well as this.

I see nothing wrong with adding such a prestige class/feat/template. Doing so might just offer more to the adventure, or future adventures.

 

[AllisterH]

I think this is worth noting for anyone in the audience who is having a fundamental bit of trouble understanding why some folks (especially those with broad experience with pre-3e D&D) are experiencing a bit of a style clash with 4e. For us (I'll be bold enough to presume speak for the group here), kobolds are NOT something that should be threatening high level characters. Kobolds occupy the mindspace of "weak low level challenge", and for them to fill some other space other than as an oddity (such as the kobold sorcerer lich in Bastion/Dragonwing's Villains) is to define something that is not a kobold.

.

The thing is, kobolds in 4e ARE just low level threats across all editions. In 2e, a single kobold could certainly ruin your day as a 1st level PC (which as a 2e DM I can attest to.

I think the only difference is that the scale in 4e isnt as sharp as in previous editions.

Once a fighter hits 5th level, gets some plate armour plus shield and or finds a magic cloak/ring, with the mage having enough scrolls/slots to be using frieball, have a cloak and bracers plus more hp, the kobolds quickly become well too weak as the gear of the PCs and their abilites simply outstrips them.

4e's more gradual slope means that this doesn't kick in until a high level.

(As an aside, how many rounds of combat do people think is too long anyway?)

re: "Arbitary" PrC entrance requirements

Er, didn't the Red wizard and the witches of Rashemen have the "must be from Thay/must be female" entry requirements?

I've stopped DMing 3.x but I thought it was totally cool to have such PrC such as "only if you're a local from this area can you enter".

 

[EroGaki]

The thing is, kobolds in 4e ARE just low level threats across all editions. In 2e, a single kobold could certainly ruin your day as a 1st level PC (which as a 2e DM I can attest to.

I think the only difference is that the scale in 4e isnt as sharp as in previous editions.

Once a fighter hits 5th level, gets some plate armour plus shield and or finds a magic cloak/ring, with the mage having enough scrolls/slots to be using frieball, have a cloak and bracers plus more hp, the kobolds quickly become well too weak as the gear of the PCs and their abilites simply outstrips them.

4e's more gradual slope means that this doesn't kick in until a high level.

(As an aside, how many rounds of combat do people think is too long anyway?)

re: "Arbitary" PrC entrance requirements

Er, didn't the Red wizard and the witches of Rashemen have the "must be from Thay/must be female" entry requirements?

I've stopped DMing 3.x but I thought it was totally cool to have such PrC such as "only if you're a local from this area can you enter".

For me, unless the battle is truly epic (end bosses, etc) 10 rounds or longer is too long. In any edition.

As for prestige class requirements, "only if you're a local from this area can enter" is great, IMO. Now if a PC is made from that area and meets the requirements, than great!

 

[Imaro]

No, that's just an example for a PrC. A PrC doesn't have to be the reason. Just an example.

But yes, I agree that it is jumping through hoops, and that's my point. As a DM, why should I have to jump through hoops, even if "within the rules", to get the desired result? Since I can jump through the mechanical hoops to get the desired result if I'm so inclined, why can't I also just use the desired result?

First, I meant you were jumping through hoops as well as moving goalposts to show their was no difference.

No one is saying you can't do it the way you want to, but when you start talking about "better"... well you need to keep in mind it's subjective. Some DM's like the ability to use the rules framework to create things for their game that while requiring work are rewarding enough( in their opinion) to be worth it. Others feel it is too much work for not enough pay off... neither view is superior, but it often seems 4e fans can't understand why you would want to do all that work... or why you would want a detailed system that facilitates it? The flip side to that is you can always hand-wave something so how does said system stop those who were going to handwave anyway. Yet a system of handwaving certainly imposes restrictions on those who want a more detailed formula.

 

[Dragonblade]

And thats exactly how 4E works. Because of the abstraction there is no way for the players to know how hard or dangerous something is beforehand, short of metagaming, anyway. So instead, everything is exactly so dangerous that it is a challenge for the PCs, not more, not less, no matter if that kind of challenge the enemy provides makes sense.

You are referring to the concept of tailored encounters vs. status quo encounters. This concept is NOT edition specific. I could have a 1st level party encounter an ancient great wyrm dragon in 3e as easily as I can in 4e. The 4e DMG provides guidelines for providing tailored encounters JUST LIKE the 3e DMG does. Status quo encounters don't need rules since the goal isn't to provided a balanced combat challenge.

I now return you to your friendly edition war discussion, already in progress.

 

[Ariosto]

In my second D&D game, back in 1978, my 1e AD&D 1st level magic user with a 15 constitution ('cause that's what I rolled) had only 1 hit point ('cause that's what I rolled).

Had you been playing by the book, your character should have had 2 hit points.

He died because he was bit by a dog. He didn't get a disease, like rabies, he got bit on the leg ...

It is a keen observation that old-style D&D is not set up to reflect non-life-threatening injuries to low-hit-point characters by way of hit point deductions.

Had the dog not merely bitten a leg but savaged the character in a prolonged assault with deadly force -- the sort of "combat" situation that (perhaps not so surprisingly?) the "combat" rules were designed to depict -- then the outcome might be more reasonable.

As with any other craft, a Dungeon Master must learn to choose the right tool for the job at hand!

 

[Imaro]

Which adds to the DMs work the need to balance this prestige class so that it doesn't become unbalanced in the hands of PCs. Unless you backload this class so that no PC can ever take it (which a lot of players and DMs consider "cheating") then it that's a lot of balance work.

In 4E (and many other systems and styles of some systems) I can ignore the PC balance issue and just worry about the encounter. Sometimes I might have to work it into the feel of how the world works, but not always.

See right here is the disconnect. For you creating a PrC wasn't enjoyable in a reward vs. work way...I understand that, but for others it was interesting and even enjoyable. Now my question is what exactly stopped you from handwaving bonuses in 3.x? Yet the people who wanted a detailed system were also satisfied.

In 4e the detailed system is to basically handwave, with a couple of guidelines. It only caters to those who wanted to and could have handwaved all along and not really to those who enjoyed using specific mechanics to build things.

 

[AllisterH]

The 21 AC was the example. If you want a better example, let's say the 10th level pirate has an AC of 31. Or 41.

My intention was not to exaggerate a problem so much as to point out something I find irksome and in poor taste. The fact that you get a boast to AC as you level is actually one of the good things in 4E, IMO.

I was illustrating something I think is messed up, regardless of system. My apologizes if that wasn't clear.

No worries, I think we might be suffering a case of "telephone" here.

The monster design guidelines states that for a monster their AC is in the range of level + (12-16 ) - which is dependant on role.

In 4e, a PC can more or less hit the same AC with level

(30th level pirate - AC of 42)
(30th level naked elf - AC of 39)

The issue I think for some is that a naked human or elf shouldnt have that high an AC since it breaks simulation. Personally, given D&D historically being a level based game, I have no problem with that.

 

[Fifth Element]

First, I meant you were jumping through hoops as well as moving goalposts to show their was no difference.

Not no difference. Effectively no difference, in the sense that you can get the desired result by inventing a mechanic to reach it.

No one is saying you can't do it the way you want to, but when you start talking about "better"...

I don't recall talking about "better". I recall a poster saying that handwaving feels like cheating, and my arguing against that.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Minions are constructed ego generation machines so that PC's have something to mow through quickly so that controllers can feel like they are making a meaningful contribution to the party.

You say that like it's a bad thing.