Challenging Challenge Ratings: Other stuff?

[Scurvy_Platypus]

So I'm wandering through this and messing with some stuff and wondering..."what about stuff that's not in the core?"

So, Auras for example.

Lich has a fear (0.2), Angel has a Protection (0.5), Archon has Menace (0.2)... but what about if we want to grab something like the Dragon Shaman auras and give them to a critter. How would I go about figuring what it's worth, since the aura is switchable between several different things and improving based on level/hd as well.

What about psionics?

I'm not looking for someone else to do the work for me, I'm just trying to figure out where to start.

Sidenote: I don't suppose we'd be lucky enough for you (Upper_Krust) to have your old files where you figured out the breakdown of the SRD critters and you'd be willing to share it would you? I've been slowly going back and doing my own breakdown and it's... tedious... I'll admit.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Scurvy!

Read your posts in the other forum (about v4 etc.)

By the way having a tough time getting ENWorld to load in the evenings here.

So I'm wandering through this and messing with some stuff and wondering..."what about stuff that's not in the core?"

So, Auras for example.

Lich has a fear (0.2), Angel has a Protection (0.5), Archon has Menace (0.2)... but what about if we want to grab something like the Dragon Shaman auras and give them to a critter. How would I go about figuring what it's worth, since the aura is switchable between several different things and improving based on level/hd as well.

Which book has the Drago Shaman in it?

What about psionics?

The honest truth about Psionics is that I never owned the revised Psionics (3.5) book and I didn't want to have to sift through the SRD at the time.

I'm not looking for someone else to do the work for me, I'm just trying to figure out where to start.

Sidenote: I don't suppose we'd be lucky enough for you (Upper_Krust) to have your old files where you figured out the breakdown of the SRD critters and you'd be willing to share it would you? I've been slowly going back and doing my own breakdown

Not totally sure what you mean by 'breakdown' here?

I mean is there not enough in v4 & v5 for you to go on?

I can see that a better Class Breakdown would have been useful in the document. I think I have a few notes somewhere on that (I have a LOT of notebooks). But to be honest I think if I tried to work it all out now I would probably end up with a different result.

I think the monsters are pretty much as broken down as they possibly can be.

and it's... tedious... I'll admit.

Tedious is spending literally 16 hours a day for 5 days working out the Monster Manual challenge ratings to the third decimal place. I grew to hate those Dragon statblocks SOOOO much.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Hey there Scurvy!

Hey there right back at you Upper_Krust!

Read your posts in the other forum (about v4 etc.)

Well, you don't _sound_ mad, so I'll guess I haven't offended you.

By the way having a tough time getting ENWorld to load in the evenings here.

Hmm. I live in NZ now, so not sure what "evenings" are for you compared to myself. I've got to say that I don't think I've ever seen ENWorld so peppy in general though. I do see some slowdowns here and there, but even then it's a lot better than I've seen it before.

Which book has the Drago Shaman in it?

Player's Handbook 2. There's an overview of it here:
Character Class: Dragon Shaman -- Elemental Warrior

My own personal summary of it? It's like a Bard without the suck. No real book-keeping but the ability to buff the party, and function as a poor man's healer. The healing aura for example is a Fast Healing with a rate that depends on Aura bonus which is +1 to start and increases by 1 every 5 levels, giving you a maximum of Fast Healing 5 at 20th level. All the auras are tied to that Aura bonus, only increasing when it gets a bump.

It's kinda like the Warlock, only as a party support type instead.

The honest truth about Psionics is that I never owned the revised Psionics (3.5) book and I didn't want to have to sift through the SRD at the time.

Totally understand this and don't blame you. Since I'm stuck working temp jobs and have time in between, I thought I might start poking at this a bit myself. I don't know a _huge_ amount about psionics, but my understanding is that a lot of people consider it a "decent" replacement for the magic system if you're wanting to go for the point-based thing instead of Vancian.

Anyway... I'm not entirely certain where to start with it. Not quite knowing/understanding how you did your thing to figure out the value of caster spell levels and all, I'm sorta left staring across the water so to speak. I know _where_ I want to go, just not clear on how to get started over there.

Not totally sure what you mean by 'breakdown' here?

I mean is there not enough in v4 & v5 for you to go on?

Oh ah... heh... so, I'm doing a breakdown like you did for example on pdf page 15 (page 14 of the document) in v5 for the Balor. The docs rock on toast in that they give the grand total of the CR factors, and then show the Rules being applied, but... yeah.

I can see you thinking, "What the @#$%$? Why are you doing _that_?!?! Well... I've got this project see, and I thought it'd be a nifty thing to put out a freebie thing for folks to use that made Monsters easier to use and... *sigh*... it's a lot of work.

They final totals mean I can try and double-check my work but when I come up with it wrong, I'm left peering at it trying to figure out where I went wrong. So I was vaguely hopeful that since you'd already made your eyes bleed out of your skull doing this, I might be able to scrounge some of your old notes or whatnots that you might have and be willing/able to share.

I can see that a better Class Breakdown would have been useful in the document. I think I have a few notes somewhere on that (I have a LOT of notebooks). But to be honest I think if I tried to work it all out now I would probably end up with a different result.

I think the monsters are pretty much as broken down as they possibly can be.

Certainly understandable.

The monster breakdown, well I explained it above. But what I'm looking to do for example, is to go back to that Balor and say, "Right, we strip out the HD, the Ability Scores, and the skills which is 24.36 and that means that the bits which make up a Balor are worth 20.061 CR.

It's a bit of an over-simplification but basically I think you can abstract out several components and still be "close enough for government work". I _think_ that abstracting this out will lead to some simpler stat-blocks that are easier for a GM to use, and it might be possible to make the monsters a bit more...morphable?... for GMs. Allow for easier "fixing"/"converting"/whatever of critters that aren't SRD.

Yeah, it's a personal project. I think I'll get some utility out of it and I hope it'd be useful to someone else.

Tedious is spending literally 16 hours a day for 5 days working out the Monster Manual challenge ratings to the third decimal place. I grew to hate those Dragon statblocks SOOOO much.

*cough*

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about right there. I'm not spending 16 hours a day doing it, but I'm basically walking in your footsteps.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there right back at you Upper_Krust!

Hello again Scurvy!

Well, you don't _sound_ mad, so I'll guess I haven't offended you.

Not at all.

Hmm. I live in NZ now, so not sure what "evenings" are for you compared to myself. I've got to say that I don't think I've ever seen ENWorld so peppy in general though. I do see some slowdowns here and there, but even then it's a lot better than I've seen it before.

Anytime between 4pm to about midnight here (about 10 pm to 4 pm EST I guess) is a nightmare for me.

Player's Handbook 2. There's an overview of it here:
Character Class: Dragon Shaman -- Elemental Warrior

Thanks for the link. I never bought the PHB2 for 3.5E.

My own personal summary of it? It's like a Bard without the suck. No real book-keeping but the ability to buff the party, and function as a poor man's healer. The healing aura for example is a Fast Healing with a rate that depends on Aura bonus which is +1 to start and increases by 1 every 5 levels, giving you a maximum of Fast Healing 5 at 20th level. All the auras are tied to that Aura bonus, only increasing when it gets a bump.

It's kinda like the Warlock, only as a party support type instead.

Ah the aura...

...treat it as an Always Active spell or closest you can get. Where it has multiple settings rate the most powerful and treat all secondary aura abilities as Half their value.

Totally understand this and don't blame you. Since I'm stuck working temp jobs and have time in between, I thought I might start poking at this a bit myself. I don't know a _huge_ amount about psionics, but my understanding is that a lot of people consider it a "decent" replacement for the magic system if you're wanting to go for the point-based thing instead of Vancian.

I'll stick with 4E thanks.

Anyway... I'm not entirely certain where to start with it. Not quite knowing/understanding how you did your thing to figure out the value of caster spell levels and all, I'm sorta left staring across the water so to speak. I know _where_ I want to go, just not clear on how to get started over there.

I can't even remember how I got the caster spell levels right now.

Oh ah... heh... so, I'm doing a breakdown like you did for example on pdf page 15 (page 14 of the document) in v5 for the Balor. The docs rock on toast in that they give the grand total of the CR factors, and then show the Rules being applied, but... yeah.

The two problems, as I see it are that firstly I cannot remember how exactly I did the spellcasting. Secondly, I changed my Class Breakdown 18 months ago when I did the Revised 3.5 Classes on my website.

I am sure I have some notes for the Revised Class breakdown lying about somewhere, but those probably won't be found until I come back from holiday.

I can see you thinking, "What the @#$%$? Why are you doing _that_?!?! Well... I've got this project see, and I thought it'd be a nifty thing to put out a freebie thing for folks to use that made Monsters easier to use and... *sigh*... it's a lot of work.

Tell me about it.

They final totals mean I can try and double-check my work but when I come up with it wrong, I'm left peering at it trying to figure out where I went wrong. So I was vaguely hopeful that since you'd already made your eyes bleed out of your skull doing this, I might be able to scrounge some of your old notes or whatnots that you might have and be willing/able to share.

I'll help where I can. I should point ut that I am going away on holiday for 10 days as of Friday, so the details will have to wait.

The monster breakdown, well I explained it above. But what I'm looking to do for example, is to go back to that Balor and say, "Right, we strip out the HD, the Ability Scores, and the skills which is 24.36 and that means that the bits which make up a Balor are worth 20.061 CR.

Well skills be damned basically, however, I think Hit Dice and Ability Scores are intrinsic to determining CR. Do you think you can bypass those and still come up with a viable alternative?

It's a bit of an over-simplification but basically I think you can abstract out several components and still be "close enough for government work".

I wish you every success.

I _think_ that abstracting this out will lead to some simpler stat-blocks that are easier for a GM to use, and it might be possible to make the monsters a bit more...morphable?... for GMs. Allow for easier "fixing"/"converting"/whatever of critters that aren't SRD.

"Scurvy's Quick Fix" you could call it.

Yeah, it's a personal project. I think I'll get some utility out of it and I hope it'd be useful to someone else.

I am sure there are enough people still interested in the matter - applying it to Pathfinder might be the way forward to generating more interest.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about right there. I'm not spending 16 hours a day doing it, but I'm basically walking in your footsteps.

I hope you get to where you are going and find out it was worth it.

I know a lot of people got a kick out of my Challenge Rating/Encounter Level documents, but it was only the fact that it was a necessity for Epic/Immortal Level gaming that I undertook the matter at all.

Frankly if you are just concerned with Levels 1-20 I wouldn't bother doing what you're doing (not to dissuade you, simply that you aren't going to get notably better results than the official 'guesstimations').