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The "Bubble"
- Thread starter antpasqu
- Start date
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
I just look at it as wanting to have a variety of useful tactics people can employ. There are plenty of ways to describe the bubble situation that are reasonable and provide perfectly good fluff. Eliminating it seems to me to be just a reaction of players to an unfavorable situations "wah, that's unfair".
And I don't really buy the argument that allowing lunge doesn't do away with the disadvantage. For some characters it will not totally mitigate it, but for most decent melee character builds they won't be seriously (if at all) impeded by a requirement to make an MBA. If an MBA was all that lousy an option then charging would be a crap tactic and it obviously isn't. Its a perfectly good tactic even if you aren't well optimized for it. In fact for characters who's melee attacks are using secondary stats an MBA with Melee Training is better than using a power. Granted you're denying your opponent a +1 to hit, which not nothing, but its only half a standard situational bonus.
Given that 90% of the time the "bubbled" character already has some sort of option it just seems like nothing but a tactics flattening exercise to get rid of it. Honestly in 6 plus levels of play with our latest group I haven't even seen this come up. Defenders are most always better off sticking to the enemy and while there have been situations where it could have been attempted the enemy always had some decent option. PCs really don't get knocked prone all that often either, and again, they seem to always have options in a real melee.
And I don't really buy the argument that allowing lunge doesn't do away with the disadvantage. For some characters it will not totally mitigate it, but for most decent melee character builds they won't be seriously (if at all) impeded by a requirement to make an MBA. If an MBA was all that lousy an option then charging would be a crap tactic and it obviously isn't. Its a perfectly good tactic even if you aren't well optimized for it. In fact for characters who's melee attacks are using secondary stats an MBA with Melee Training is better than using a power. Granted you're denying your opponent a +1 to hit, which not nothing, but its only half a standard situational bonus.
Given that 90% of the time the "bubbled" character already has some sort of option it just seems like nothing but a tactics flattening exercise to get rid of it. Honestly in 6 plus levels of play with our latest group I haven't even seen this come up. Defenders are most always better off sticking to the enemy and while there have been situations where it could have been attempted the enemy always had some decent option. PCs really don't get knocked prone all that often either, and again, they seem to always have options in a real melee.
Flipguarder
First Post
Ooh, maybe the bubble is intentional, but it's unintentional that someone standing on top of someone else lets them avoid it, because the free shift is purely to prevent poor situations where someone couldn't stand.
Personally I am going to make a house-rule that when a person stands inside a prone person's square, and the prone person's turn comes up, i roll a d8 and they shift into the square that comes up on the dice like so:
123
4X5
678
X prone/non prone person.
Prestidigitalis
First Post
Fascinating discussion -- and not a single comment that I would consider a flame!
I like the Lunge idea, personally, but I'd consider nerfing it further, to make it a true action of last resort.
"When prone, you may stand up, shift one square and attack an adjacent enemy as a single standard action. The attack is a melee basic attack that does half damage on a hit, and no damage on a miss. You can not Lunge if you are dazed, slowed, immobilzed or restrained." (Please excuse my non-WotC-style verbiage)
What do you think?
I like the Lunge idea, personally, but I'd consider nerfing it further, to make it a true action of last resort.
"When prone, you may stand up, shift one square and attack an adjacent enemy as a single standard action. The attack is a melee basic attack that does half damage on a hit, and no damage on a miss. You can not Lunge if you are dazed, slowed, immobilzed or restrained." (Please excuse my non-WotC-style verbiage)
What do you think?
keterys
First Post
Given that my greatest objection is to when someone is dazed and you specifically move 1 square out of reach... that wouldn't work for me.
Assuming that multiple opponents solves the problem doesn't cope with two situations very well...
1) Any situation in which another target is past a defender who can make going past with an OA impossible (fighter or warden)
2) Any situation in which the players have no other viable target
Cause, again, if you're dazed and 1 square out, you can't switch weapons, you can't ready an attack, you can't charge, you're just well and truly screwed.
Assuming that multiple opponents solves the problem doesn't cope with two situations very well...
1) Any situation in which another target is past a defender who can make going past with an OA impossible (fighter or warden)
2) Any situation in which the players have no other viable target
Cause, again, if you're dazed and 1 square out, you can't switch weapons, you can't ready an attack, you can't charge, you're just well and truly screwed.
Prestidigitalis
First Post
Assuming the last comment (#115) is a reply to my suggestion:
Would you like it better if the bits about dazed and slowed were removed?
Would you like it better if the bits about dazed and slowed were removed?
keterys
First Post
Well, I assume you'd still keep the 'while prone'
I'm okay conceptually with 'Lunge (standard action - at-will): You may move (not shift) 1 square and make a melee basic attack.'. I'm also okay with riders on that ability, if you want to make it worse, such as 'You grant combat advantage until the start of your next turn.' and ', at a -2 penalty to attack'. I mean, personally, if you're going to have a house rule at all I actually advise that it be as simple as possible, so I'd veer away from 'em, but whatever floats folks' boats once you're in the house rule area.
I'm okay conceptually with 'Lunge (standard action - at-will): You may move (not shift) 1 square and make a melee basic attack.'. I'm also okay with riders on that ability, if you want to make it worse, such as 'You grant combat advantage until the start of your next turn.' and ', at a -2 penalty to attack'. I mean, personally, if you're going to have a house rule at all I actually advise that it be as simple as possible, so I'd veer away from 'em, but whatever floats folks' boats once you're in the house rule area.
Prestidigitalis
First Post
Well, I assume you'd still keep the 'while prone'
Well, yes. That's why I didn't mention removing it.
I think it's important to keep it to prone because I picture it as a "stand and lunge" maneuver for when prone, not as a generic additional option. We've all seen movies with what I describe, so it's a fairly clear-cut concept.
I'm not big on house rules myself, but that doesn't keep me from having an opinion. Do NOT get between me and my opinions.
Flipguarder
First Post
Your internet threats do nothing against my internet apathy.
(Prestidigitalis)-(Flipguarder)-(Prestidigitalis' opinions)
Prestidigitalis
First Post
Ohhh, now you've done it! Your Internet Apathy cannot stand against my Internet Rampage: once per round I will Charge you with crimes against Nature, or possibly Dungeoneering.
Flipguarder, you have met your match. Well, it's really a rusty Ronson lighter, but you get the idea. Prepare to d12!
