Yet another solution to the Minion Problem

[amnuxoll]

A number of solutions to the fact that minions are too easy to kill have been posted. Some solutions I've seen along with the chief argument against using them:

1. Double or triple the number of minions (problem: too many bad guys!)
2. Increase minion hp and require that you do at least that much damage to kill them or not at all (problem: It's hard to reliably pick a hp level that "works")
3. Require two hits to kill a minion (problem: bookkeeping, slows combat)
4. Don't use minions at all (problem: minions fill an important niche in some combats)
5. Minions get a saving throw to stay alive if they are hit (problem: slows down combat)

So, I'm going to throw a new idea into the mix:
6. Minions receive a +5 bonus to all their defenses vs. bursts and blasts.

I realize this cuts down on the controller's spotlight moment, but at this point most classes have a decent set of AoE powers so it's less of an issue.

Thoughts?

 

[Starfox]

I've been thinking of rephrazing "a miss doesn't damage a minion" to "a minion is only damage by powers that hit". The main minion killer is automatic damage. Powers that currently do automatic damage require an attack roll agaisnt minions, unless the power already has an attack roll in the first case - like Cleave.

Not tough this trough, however, there might be powers where this wouldn't work.

 

[Sporemine]

This creates a problem, as minion killing is one of the controller's roles. If you eliminate that the controller is no longer able to send 6-8 minions to death in a firey burst, eliminating some major fun from that role.

In my opinion, there is no minion problem. They work fine and don't need to be changed.

Kudos

-Sporemine

 

[keterys]

'Too many bad guys'???

I think your problem is my feature. As I see it, there are three potential problems with minions:

1) Automatic damage deals with them too easily
2) They are not worth the xp value assigned to them
3) At higher levels in particular, burst attacks can be very large and potentially catch too many minions at once (particularly true of enemies only attacks and with the enlarge spell feat)

I like the idea of dealing with automatic damage in some fashion - whether that's by requiring it to hit (mostly outright denying it) or giving a save for automatic damage, or bloodying on automatic damage, or whatever.

Allowing more minions per 'xp spent' sounds fine to me. I've seen some extremely good combats where they started with 8-10 minions but had used 20-24 by the end of it, and that's just not viable by the normal xp parameters.

The higher level 'and I casually attack all your minions' thing is a bit of a deal. I'm okay conceptually with giving controllers their chance to shine, though it's not just a controller shtick (why, hello, cleric, hello, sorcerer). Up to you how much you care, really.

 

[RangerWickett]

I just give minions resist all 5 (10 at paragon, 15 at epic). Also, I may increase their damage a tad, especially ones in the MM, because it's often low compared to what an average roll would be for a standard monster of the same level.

This might actually make them slightly more challenging than their XP value at the beginning of the fight, but as the PCs clear them out, I think it balances.

For instance, a single standard monster might get in 6 attacks before the PCs kill it. Four minions get 4 attacks each round, but the PCs can probably kill them in 2 or 3 rounds. I find this makes minions a respectable threat.

 

[lukelightning]

I've been thinking of rephrazing "a miss doesn't damage a minion" to "a minion is only damage by powers that hit". The main minion killer is automatic damage. Powers that currently do automatic damage require an attack roll agaisnt minions, unless the power already has an attack roll in the first case - like Cleave.

Not tough this trough, however, there might be powers where this wouldn't work.

So minions can walk across lava? Pass through walls of fire? Ignore clouds of acid?

 

[Garthanos]

Yup more bad guys = more fun...
For me bloodying on a miss and non-targetted damage has enough other cool benefits that it outshines other options. PCs start to like ally minions they can heal and readily bloodied enemies they can intimidate, etc. Its about making them more interesting... and actually they fall to damage on a miss more reliably... which is what damage on a miss is supposed to mean.
Minions arent a problem to me but with a simple house rule they can be cooler. (and it doesnt make them in generally tougher .. it still only takes one focused attack to take them out.)

 

[Flipguarder]

This creates a problem, as minion killing is one of the controller's roles. If you eliminate that the controller is no longer able to send 6-8 minions to death in a firey burst, eliminating some major fun from that role.

In my opinion, there is no minion problem. They work fine and don't need to be changed.

Kudos

-Sporemine

I pretty much completely disagree with this. Controllers are masters of doing damage to many targets at a time, in addition to putting nasty effects on the enemies they hit. To claim that one of a controller's roles is killing minions there would need to be at least one controller power that does 1 damage to each target.
That would show evidence that what you state was a design intent. As it is, I like the idea that minions take 2 hits, it makes the less trivial.

 

[Aramax]

This creates a problem, as minion killing is one of the controller's roles. If you eliminate that the controller is no longer able to send 6-8 minions to death in a firey burst, eliminating some major fun from that role.

In my opinion, there is no minion problem. They work fine and don't need to be changed.

Kudos

-Sporemine

What he said

 

[Flipguarder]

lol ^

I would not press any of those links.... just warning the general public.