Dragon Con: A Sight of the Schism in action

[PoeticJustice]

It's not a criticism or anything, but man I have heard that said to much to just wave it off as bashing. The over all look of the book tends to remind folks of wow, and the powers and such. I am not saying it plays like wow or that they are right but that is what they jump to.

Saying it's not like wow all day long does nothing to make folks think of it as like a MMO upon first look. I am not bashing the game but people get the impression they get. Saying they are wrong, ignorant or bashers does nothing to change that first impression

I know people that seem to enjoy the game so it's not an attack on it. Stand in a bookstore near the games a while, watch teenages with no pen and paper knowledge look though the books. I have Pointed a few to some games even cleared up the "It looks like wow" thing twice now. This group looked though some shadowrun, 3.5 and wod books yet when they picked up the 4e PHB it was "Hey guys look this looks like WoW!" At that point I went over said Hi told em I was told it did not play like wow, but still thats what they jumped to.

This is not me saying that{though I did on first looking at the book) but other people that had never played. The comparison is not going away unless the books are vastly redesigned and thats not gonna happen. But hey if they can bring more players into the community then more power to em

Do you think the kids in the store said it looked like WoW because it looks like WoW and the others didn't or because it was the only one they bothered to read for more than a moment or two? WoD wouldn't look anything like WoW and 3.5 PHB is less accessible than 4E PHB (smaller text and more of it, less pics, etc.). It's up in the air, so you can't conclude that even the passing observer sees more similarity than to WoW than other editions.

I know you might not feel this way, but people do use an imagined, special connection between 4E and WoW as an attack on the system. The people who do this are in a position to know the system well enough to realize it isn't any more like WoW than any other edition, but they don't want to know.

 

[Rechan]

We've been over this all ready.

But I think Hereticus sums up what I want to say nicely:

When people who are not WoW players compare 4.0E to WoW, they are likely categorizing all video games into one, using the name of the one they heard of most and demonizing it. In a similar manner, some non role players categorize all RPGs as D&D.

 

[Jack99]

We've been over this all ready.

More than once it seems to me.. Let the poor horse die already.

 

[Umbran]

It boils down to this:

There are three demographics WotC needs to market the game to:

Well, you see, that's not really true. Those are the demographics it might make sense for them to market to. Whether they need to market to all of them is a matter of some debate. It may well be that trying to make one game that sells well to all of those groups simply isn't cost-effective.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Welcome to the ENWorld boards, ronnieramone!

Re: 4ED=WoW

Personally, I don't play any of the subscription MMO games, so I can't speak to whether that perception is justified...based on my observations.

However, most of the guys in my group do play WoW and other CRPGs- one even programs computer games professionally- and nearly all of those guys compared 4Ed to WoW or another CRPG.

Not that I haven't compared 4Ed to computer games. I just felt it reminded me of games like Tekken or Mortal Kombat.

 

[Wicht]

Some of the comparisons are just perspective based on the observers prior experiences. Personally, as a semi-grognard, when I play fantasy computer games, my default comparison, if I had to describe them to myself or another, would be to say that they are like Dungeons and Dragons. I would say this of any number of games from Diablo to World of Warcraft to Bard's Tale to Heroes of Might and Magic. To me, fantasy gaming is Dungeons and Dragons and everything else derives from it. To another, younger person though, World of Warcraft may be their gateway into fantasy games of any genre and thus the default comparison.

This is, granted, a seperate issue from those 4e detractors who try to disparage 4e by making the comparison. I think it behooves 4e promoters to discern the intent of the statement before automatically getting upset. Otherwise you might find yourself attacking someone who actually is trying to make what is to them a favorable comparison.

 

[Dice4Hire]

More than once it seems to me.. Let the poor horse rest in peace already.

fixed it for you

 

[I'm A Banana]

Sadly, I've always ended up having to abandon gaming with people when this happened - back when I was first into roleplaying, before I quit for about 4 years, my group went on one of those "renounce AD&D, play WoD, we're roleplayers-not-rollplayers" benders and I stopped wanting to play with them ever.

And well, the pre-release information of 4e apparently caused two of the people in my community to become so frustrated with 3e that they immediately declared, before 4e was even released, that they would never play 3e again. One of them was in my 3e game at the time and made good on such by immediately walking out.

This is also extremely sad.

If Paizo and WotC can still come over to each others' barbeques and play and enjoy each others' games, what the heck has crawled so deeply betwixt some fans' cheeks? What do you have riding on this? What's it worth?

Dang, kids, I'd just as soon not play any D&D game, in that case. Let's play Smash Bros or Halo or Scrabble or something. Something with less crazy anyway.

RE: 4e & WoW

Part of me idly wonders if the slightly "cartoony" art that pops up especially in the first core books contributes to this. Part of me also wonders if this was a conscious decision on WotC's part to attract the WoW audience, since WoW is quite cartoony (and wears its anime influences rather proudly).

The similarities between them are no closer than the similarities between a terrier and a great dane. Maybe father. Maybe between a terrier and a sabre-toothed tiger. Clearly, they're both mammals, but man, the differences far outweigh the similarities.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

RE: 4e & WoW

Part of me idly wonders if the slightly "cartoony" art that pops up especially in the first core books contributes to this. Part of me also wonders if this was a conscious decision on WotC's part to attract the WoW audience, since WoW is quite cartoony (and wears its anime influences rather proudly).

While that may be the case for some- that is a highly subjective observation, after all- it wasn't the case with my buddies. (They were harping on and on about mechanics that reminded them of WoW or other CRPGs. Since I don't play CRPGs, I kind of tuned them out after a few minutes...)

 

[Hussar]

/snip

If the younger generation grew up on video games, why not give them a pen and paper RPG that builds on what they already know from video games, complete with a monthly membership? /snip

I'm 37 and I grew up on videogames. I had videogames in my home since I was 8 years old. I played D&D inspired video games on the C64 and probably the Vic 20 as well. I'm willing to bet that just about everyone here under the age of 40 grew up with video games.

What is this "younger generation" you speak of?

I think that I was trying to say that if WotC decides that 35+ gamers don't bvuy and therefore stop marketing to them, it will become a self fulfilling prophecy. I'm also saying that when one does such a study and gets such results, if it was my company, the question I would ask would not be, "How can we better market to the younger crowd that is already buying more than the older crowd." I would ask myself how I could better serve the older crowd which I would calculate to have more money to spend.

Couple of points. This was market research that was done before 3e came out, not 4e. This was what they based 3e on. IIRC, there are a few threads here floating around that complained about that fact at the time. But, I've also heard Ryan Dancy talk about this same fact and he was pretty emphatic about it. Role playing game buyers (not players) tended to be very heavily surburban and under 35.

So, if that's what your market research tells you, it would be bad business to target other markets.

I also note that the bit I put in there from Dragon got glossed over. Dragon readership was 25 years old on average. And IIRC, overwhelmingly male.

So, it's not like it's just WOTC saying this. That RPG's (or at least D&D RPG's) are primarily a younger male hobby (again, from the purchasing standpoint) is something that's been shown in more than a few places.

Honestly, from my own viewpoint, I think this is why places like EN World might not be a good overview of the game buying population. We're simply too old. ((Again, note the game buying part there. I'm not saying gamer.))