Are Commoners now immune to Detect Evil?

[BryonD]

Yet curiously, even trace amouns of evil react violently with smites and various spells.

I can't smell uranium, but boy can it react violently.

Sorry, to me this just reads, "We don't want paladins detecting evil barkeeps any more, but we want them to be able to detect 6th level evil wizards." While I can sympathize, I do not agree. Too game-ish. Characters in game don't know how many HD something has... oh, wait, now they do, if it's non-neutral and has 6 or more HD.

Heh, its nice to have something I like be called "game-ish" for once. But being this is a fully subjective matter, I don't buy that description.

Do they know that every wizard who casts fireball has at least 5 HD? Same thing. You are forcing more implication into the system than is implicitly there.
They have never heard of hit dice, but they know whether or not they have reached a threshold of evil threat that this 1st level spell can acknowledge it.

Why is detect evil so sensitive it can detect actively evil intent, but not sensitive enough to detect 52+ encounters of standard difficulty in which an NPC acted from an evil standpoint?

The same reason fireball does d6s and not d8s. And that isn't a cop out, I really mean it.

It makes the game model a pseudo-reality that functions in a desirable manner.

 

[pawsplay]

I can't smell uranium, but boy can it react violently.

A Geiger counter will pick up whether an item has been near uranium.

They have never heard of hit dice, but they know whether or not they have reached a threshold of evil threat that this 1st level spell can acknowledge it.

If that's the game reality you want. If you want a spell that can detect when an otherwise and generally neutral 6 HD rogue has decided to act on evil intent, but cannot detect a 3 HD goblin leader who has personally murdered dozens of individuals, some of them just for sport, over the course of years, then I guess the spell functions correctly for you.

Since this is a change from 3.5, I want to know, "What does this do better?" And I am not especially interested in hearing about particles of Evil Radiation, since that is certainly not a part of many game worlds. This spell does not appear to change the underlying assumptions of alignment in D&D very much; evil is evil, D&D is a world of tangible evil, and evil clerics and supernatural creatures are more attuned to that evil than the non-magical, but evil exists as a real force and affects even people who do not have particular philosophical precepts. You do not have to believe in evil; it believes in you.

Given that, the inability of the spell to detect even a faint amount of evil on a very evil creature, simply because they lack experience or notable life accomplishments, seems illogical.

Erase the ability of the spell to detect mundane evil at all, and I'll withdraw my logical objection. Whether or not the spell detects mundane evil is a matter of preference. But whether it should be able to detect minor evil characters is something that can be discussed based on logic. I'm not saying I'm right and other people are wrong, but from my standpoint, my position looks a lot stronger. Not only does it replicate most of the results of 3.5, which a lot of people have played without difficulty in this regard, but it makes more sense to me based on the assumptions I've stated above.

In a world where Evil is a force of nature, I don't see how having an evil alignment can ever be trivial.

 

[BryonD]

A Geiger counter will pick up whether an item has been near uranium.

So? The point is that not everything is capable of detecting anything at any trace level, no matter how small. The concept of a minimal detection limit is quite real.

Why must a geiger counter be the correct analog? Obviously the rules indicate that my nose is a better analog.

If that's the game reality you want. If you want a spell that can detect when an otherwise and generally neutral 6 HD rogue has decided to act on evil intent, but cannot detect a 3 HD goblin leader who has personally murdered dozens of individuals, some of them just for sport, over the course of years, then I guess the spell functions correctly for you.

I don't have one correct answer. This answer works for me, as did 3.5.

Since this is a change from 3.5, I want to know, "What does this do better?" And I am not especially interested in hearing about particles of Evil Radiation, since that is certainly not a part of many game worlds.

Really? Because my 3.5 PH talks about "Aura Power". And the power of an aura changes with HD. This change in power is the only thing I am talking about. Why does an 11HD evil rogue show up differently than a 10HD evil Rogue under 3.5 rules? The answer is that his evil aura radiates more powerfully than 10 HD rogues. According to 3.5 the amount of whatever is being detected is increased as HD go up.

I think this is your underlying problem. You are imposing a false interpretation of the mechanic and demanding that everyone agree with you. Not only do I disagree, I believe your model flies in the face of 3.5. 3.5 requires that there be some sliding scale of both magnitude of evil aura and that the response of detect evil varies with this magnitude.

You do not have to believe in evil; it believes in you.

True, and unless there is enough of that evil, Detect Evil can not find it, regardless of who believes in what.

Given that, the inability of the spell to detect even a faint amount of evil on a very evil creature, simply because they lack experience or notable life accomplishments, seems illogical.

That is not given.

In a world where Evil is a force of nature, I don't see how having an evil alignment can ever be trivial.

The potential for that evil to do anything about it can be very very trivial. But that aside, no one is saying the evil is trivial, only that a L1 spell can not detect it. It could be REALLY serious deadly horrid evil and not be detectable by this first level spell. There is not contradiction there. You are related two unrelated items.

I think what it does better is creates a lot more shades of gray in terms of what Detect Evil says. I think it is a good thing. It isn't one of the changes that I'm singing the praises of. I wouldn't cry if it was not changed. But it is better than before.

I don't see the slightest lack of logic in the position.

Why were you ok with a 3.5 evil showing less clearly if it had 10 HD than 11 HD? (And didn't this commit the sin of letting a PC grok the difference between 10 and 11 HD, thus knowing that HD exist?)
If evil can have different tiers of "aura power" then it is totally rational that different detection techniques could have different capacity to detect these tiers. I would have no issue whatsoever with an item or spell that only detected Overwhelming auras, or strong+ auras, or moderate+ auras. To an item that could not detect anything less than strong, there would be no functional distinction between "moderate" and "none". That doesn't mean the aura is not there, only that the detection can not perceive it.

And this type of situation does exist over and over in the real world. There is no requirement that Detect Evil work like real world detection devices. But neither is there any requirement that it contradict real world systems.

I am an environmental engineer. I deal with analytical data constantly. It is very common for me to look at water data that has been tested for benzene, for example. I will never ever get a result that says there was no benzene in the water. That answer is not possible. A typical "not detected" result is < 1 microgram per liter. It may be that there truly was not a single molecule of benzene in the sample. But it also may be that there was 0.868 micrograms of benzene in every liter of water present. That I deal with reporting limits all the time may be part of why I find it so easy to wrap my head around a less than reported positive value.

I have not seen anything that says why evil must be detectable down to infinitesimal levels. If anything, following you argument to its logical conclusion should say that aura power should not exist and detect evil is an up/down yes/no for anything and everything.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I'm going to have to side with Byron on this one. While HD is a gamist function, the idea of a person having strength is not.

My neighbor might be just as much of a jerk as the bad guy dojo teacher from Karate Kid, but one of them is a 25 year old frat boy, and the other is the BBEG in a heartwarming kid's movie.

The HD5 bandit who's a rather nasty fellow just isn't that strong. Yes he's a big jerk, but he's a big jerk who could get his butt whipped.

Detect Evil isn't "Detect Who You Can Smite." It's for finding hidden outsiders, detecting the presence of nightmarish monsters, or rooting out sinister cultists imbued with the power of Evil.

Not for finding that one bloke who killed a few people.

Likewise, if you have an evil serial killer who murders hundreds, they aren't going to be level one.

 

[pawsplay]

If evil can have different tiers of "aura power" then it is totally rational that different detection techniques could have different capacity to detect these tiers. I would have no issue whatsoever with an item or spell that only detected Overwhelming auras, or strong+ auras, or moderate+ auras. To an item that could not detect anything less than strong, there would be no functional distinction between "moderate" and "none". That doesn't mean the aura is not there, only that the detection can not perceive it.

I don't object to that concept at all of different auras. I object to the idea that being 11 HD and a bad person warrants an aura, but eating beans out of Aunt Janie's skull does not. And just FYI, murdering 100 CR 1 humans or 200 CR 1/2 humans in cold blood is worth 40,000 xp, only enough to get you to 7th level even under Fast advancement.

I think this is your underlying problem. You are imposing a false interpretation of the mechanic and demanding that everyone agree with you. Not only do I disagree, I believe your model flies in the face of 3.5. 3.5 requires that there be some sliding scale of both magnitude of evil aura and that the response of detect evil varies with this magnitude.

Did I object to the sliding scale of evil? Feel free to point out where I said that, so I can correct my phrasing in order to make it clear I am not objecting to that.

I am not making a false interpretation of the mechanic. I am examining the same literal mechanic you are. I am making what I believe to be reasonable suppositions of what it is supposed to represent.

Nor am I insisting everyone agree with me. I am simply refusing to agree with you. It was changed from 3.5, I think the change does not make a lot of sense, I have yet to see evidence that changes my mind. The longer this discussion goes on, the more clear it becomes that the Pathfinder version requires a tortuous, non-intuitive explanation based on metaphysics that are not described anywhere in the rules in order for the results of the spell to make sense. By contrast, the 3.5 version functions pretty much as advertised.

Detect Evil isn't "Detect Who You Can Smite." It's for finding hidden outsiders, detecting the presence of nightmarish monsters, or rooting out sinister cultists imbued with the power of Evil.

... unless said cultists are sorcerers or rogues of less than 5 HD. Again, very useful for a high level paladin, not so useful for a low level paladin. For a higher level paladin, it is "Detect Who You Can Smite," when dealing with CR-appropriate foes. Why is this a 1st level paladin ability? Why is it a 1st level spell?

And despite what has been asserted before, the new version does not create more shades of gray. For powerful opponents, it as black-and-white as ever. Conversely, I think it is a lot more interesting from a moral standpoint for the paladin to be aware of the evil inkeep, the evil guy loitering in the market, the evil major's wife, and so forth. That creates some dillemas. 5 HD creature and characters present very few... they are powerful enough to have reputations and their evil activities are most likely very significant.

 

[pawsplay]

Unless the Pf bestiary has altered the fiendish template, fiendish dire rats do not generate an evil aura. Curiously, if summoned, they do.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Yes, unless cultists are below CR5.

Because, quite frankly, below CR 5 is sort of chump change. A cultist below CR 5 is just some bloke who sacrifices the occasional cat. He's not even a priest. Remember, priests and paladins DO detect as evil below CR5.

Below CR5 you have ettincaps, kobolds, and hobgoblins. Heck, even girallons - monkies with four arms - are higher then CR 5.

And no, below level 5, paladins can still get use out of detect evil. No, you won't be able to see the random dudes who join up once a month for the Forgotten Evil God get together. But you'll still be able to see the BBEG high priest as evil.

Personally, I like this change. I hate the idea of detecting the shopkeeper who sometimes cheats his customers as being EVIL EVIL WARNING WARNING BAD DUDE. A cutpurse isn't Evil, note capitalization.

 

[BryonD]

I don't object to that concept at all of different auras. I object to the idea that being 11 HD and a bad person warrants an aura, but eating beans out of Aunt Janie's skull does not. And just FYI, murdering 100 CR 1 humans or 200 CR 1/2 humans in cold blood is worth 40,000 xp, only enough to get you to 7th level even under Fast advancement.



Did I object to the sliding scale of evil? Feel free to point out where I said that, so I can correct my phrasing in order to make it clear I am not objecting to that.

You said you were not interested in hearing about particles of Evil Radiation, even though I had not used that term and you were only using it to describe my reference to differences in aura power. You objected to it right there.

I am not making a false interpretation of the mechanic. I am examining the same literal mechanic you are. I am making what I believe to be reasonable suppositions of what it is supposed to represent.

Nor am I insisting everyone agree with me. I am simply refusing to agree with you. It was changed from 3.5, I think the change does not make a lot of sense, I have yet to see evidence that changes my mind. The longer this discussion goes on, the more clear it becomes that the Pathfinder version requires a tortuous, non-intuitive explanation based on metaphysics that are not described anywhere in the rules in order for the results of the spell to make sense. By contrast, the 3.5 version functions pretty much as advertised.

To the contrary, the only torture of the situation is coming from you.

You are not even being consistent. You said being able to tell 6HD was a new and bad thing. And yet when I point out that you could already tell 11HD you sidestep that this is exactly the same problem. I did not question whether 11HD should warrant "an arua" , I questioned why it is terrible for a 6HD evil person to have a notable different aura than a 5HD person (as you complained about) and yet you seem to accept with no qualms whatsoever that an 11HD person has a notably different aura than a 10 HD person.

Here is your quote:

Characters in game don't know how many HD something has... oh, wait, now they do, if it's non-neutral and has 6 or more HD.

"now they do" is false. The only thing that has changed is the threshold has moved from 11 to 6.

Why under 3.5 does an 11HD rogue who is life long petty thief warrant a stronger aura than a 4 HD guy who eats beans out of Aunt Janie's skull? Again, you are forcing additional elements into the mechanic that are not there. Under 3.5 Detect Evil did nothing but look at is it evil [yes/no] and how many HD does it have.

Perhaps you are saying that under the 3X alignment system that anyone evil would eat beans out of Aunt Janie's skull and if you won't do that you don't qualify as evil. If you are imposing this interpretation on the system then I'd say you are out of step with the common interpretation. Which is fine, but it is going to fall to you to deal with adjustments to the system that reflect your other changes.

But detect evil has *never* detected "how evil are you", it has always detected "how powerful are you". Show me the SRD or 3X quote that describes how eating beans out of Aunt Janie's skull would change the result of detect evil.

And despite what has been asserted before, the new version does not create more shades of gray. For powerful opponents, it as black-and-white as ever.

It is the same black and white for more powerful opponents. For weaker opponents it adds more shades of gray. Last time I checked, more shades of gray was more shades of gray.

... unless said cultists are sorcerers or rogues of less than 5 HD. Again, very useful for a high level paladin, not so useful for a low level paladin. For a higher level paladin, it is "Detect Who You Can Smite," when dealing with CR-appropriate foes. Why is this a 1st level paladin ability? Why is it a 1st level spell?

He said "It's for finding hidden outsiders, detecting the presence of nightmarish monsters, or rooting out sinister cultists imbued with the power of Evil." Note that last part "imbued with the power of Evil.". If your whole "cult" is made up of rogues and sorcerers less than 5HD, then it is fair to say that they are not "imbued with the power of Evil."

As to the 1st level paladin, quite simply: Why not? It still finds evil undead, and evil clerics. But the paladin must learn how to deal with some of the more challenging questions of morality before his god start giving him answers for free when it comes to rogues and wizards.

Bottom line is, if you want to say you are house-ruling because in your campaign things like whether or not you eat beans out of aunt Janie's brain are part of the detect evil equation, then fine. I see no reason for anyone to argue. But if you are going to present a case that this is at odds with prior views you will need to present a case that relies on nothing more than [yes/no] evil and HD, because that is what 3.5 had.

 

[BryonD]

A cultist below CR 5 is just some bloke who sacrifices the occasional cat.

I disagree with you here. A 4 or 5 HD cultist could easily be evil through and through and run around on nightly murder sprees of 1 HD elderly commoners.

But, Detect Evil, is about power. The 6 HD thief down the road presents more capacity to impose his evil, even if he is not living up to it.

 

[pawsplay]

Personally, I like this change. I hate the idea of detecting the shopkeeper who sometimes cheats his customers as being EVIL EVIL WARNING WARNING BAD DUDE. A cutpurse isn't Evil, note capitalization.

Unless he's a 5 HD cutpurse.