Spells which were not properly nerved...

[Votan]

I've never heard of Blasphemy as being even close to broken before...and no it doesn't look to be changed that I can see.

The only Core Demon/Devils that have Blasphemy as an SLA are Balors (CL 20) & Pit Fiend (CL 18), both fixed. They are both CR 20, so realistically you shouldn't be encountering them utnil you are in the 18-20 level range (in a normal game). At which point the effects from Blasphemy are either negligible (i.e. Dazed for the Pit Fiend's and Weakend/Dazed for the Balor's) or easily avoidable: DC 25 Will save to negate Daze and 1/2 the Str penalty... plus SR applies.

Once you should be faciing it as a creature SLA you shouldn't have to really even worry about it, let alone face a TPK from it...

Not that a cleric can have this spell, that the CL-5 effect is paralysis for minutes and there are a lot of ways to boost caster level (including magic items). Facing a cleric who is level 17 with a prayer bead (or divine feat) that let's her boost her CL to 20 could happen to a party with many of the players at 15th level (it's far worse if level adjusted characters are in your party).

 

[Twowolves]

Silence allows a Will save and SR, and it does not state this is limited to a creature upon whom the spell is centered.

Objects don't get a save. The spell is centered on a creature, object or point in space, and it's an area emanation. Unless I'm missing something, you only get a save if you are the target, but SR applies whenever the protected creature is affected, regardless of when.

 

[pawsplay]

Objects don't get a save. The spell is centered on a creature, object or point in space, and it's an area emanation. Unless I'm missing something, you only get a save if you are the target, but SR applies whenever the protected creature is affected, regardless of when.

It's an area spell, just like fireball or glitterdust. Why wouldn't you get a save? Burst, emanation and spread have the same entry under Aiming a Spell.

 

[Twowolves]

Fireball and Glitterdust are both spreads, not emanations, and neither have "Save: Object none" in their entries.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Fireball and Glitterdust are both spreads, not emanations, and neither have "Save: Object none" in their entries.

Fireball with save: Will Negate; see text, Object (None). Would be awesome. Don't cast in directly on enemies and you get no save.

It says in PSRD: Unattended Objects and points of space get no save.

 

[pawsplay]

Objects don't get a save. The spell is centered on a creature, object or point in space, and it's an area emanation. Unless I'm missing something, you only get a save if you are the target, but SR applies whenever the protected creature is affected, regardless of when.

You are missing something. Silence doesn't have targets, it is an area spell. Just like a fireball.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

silence

Here is the 3.5 SRD entry for silence:

Silence
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text or no (object)
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks.


So, are you arguing that

1) a creature standing in an area that would be in the area of effect of a silence spell receives a save when it is cast, even though it is cast on a fixed point in space?

2) a creature who enters an area previously affected by a silence spell gets a save upon entering it?

3) a creature who has a previously cast silenced spell (say, cast on the party rogue) encroach on him on his turn gets a save to ignore it's effect?

This has never been my interpretation of the rules, nor of any other gamers I have played with. I will agree, though, that this interpretation makes the spell more palatable.

If you look at the SRD entry above, the text that mentions saves is in a subclause describing the case where the spell is cast on the creature in question. It isn't clear to me that it's intended to apply when the silenced area is on a point in space.

If we go with your interpretation of the rules, what happens when a creature repeatedly enters and leaves a silenced area? Does the creature receive a saving throw each time?

Ken

 

[Twowolves]

You are missing something. Silence doesn't have targets, it is an area spell. Just like a fireball.

The spell quite specifically says in it's description that it can be cast on a point in space or on a person or object. Fireball has no such wording. Likewise, Fireball is a spread, Silence is an emanation. Fireball's save line says "Reflex half", Silence says "Will negates or none (object)".

Obviously you can target a Silence spell. The spell says you can.

 

[pawsplay]

So, are you arguing that

1) a creature standing in an area that would be in the area of effect of a silence spell receives a save when it is cast, even though it is cast on a fixed point in space?

Possibly. The RAW seems to suggest that.

2) a creature who enters an area previously affected by a silence spell gets a save upon entering it?

Again, possibly.

3) a creature who has a previously cast silenced spell (say, cast on the party rogue) encroach on him on his turn gets a save to ignore it's effect?

And possibly.

This has never been my interpretation of the rules, nor of any other gamers I have played with. I will agree, though, that this interpretation makes the spell more palatable.

If you look at the SRD entry above, the text that mentions saves is in a subclause describing the case where the spell is cast on the creature in question. It isn't clear to me that it's intended to apply when the silenced area is on a point in space.

It isn't clear to me at all what was intended. Looking at the RAW, though, I see an illusion spell that affects an area and allows a Will save to negate.

 

[pawsplay]

The spell quite specifically says in it's description that it can be cast on a point in space or on a person or object.

That part tells us nothing about who gets a save. Also, it is "centered" on a person, object, or point in space, not cast on them.

Fireball has no such wording.

Actually, fireball allows you to target a point in space if you make a ranged touch.

Likewise, Fireball is a spread, Silence is an emanation.

Both use the same rules.

Aiming a Spell
You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate....

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell....

Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.

You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range....

Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects....

Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.

An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.

Just to be clear, silence looks like this:

School illusion (glamer); Level bard 2, cleric 2
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in spaceDuration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object); Spell Resistance: yes; see text or no (object)

Hence, it uses the rules for Area spells, not targeted ones, and uses the exact same rules as, say, fireball or glitterdust.

Fireball's save line says "Reflex half", Silence says "Will negates or none (object)".

And thus, both spells are alike in specifying that people in the area of effect get a Saving Throw. Will negates precedes the semicolon. Objects get no saving throw, but upon seeing the text, we see that attended objects get their owner's will save.

Obviously you can target a Silence spell. The spell says you can.

No, you cannot. The spell is an area, although that area can be centered on a creature. The spell has no targets. See above.