Primal Power Excerpt: The Swarm Druid

[gribble]

i found no rules dictating whether--and if so, when exactly--a burst or blast changes mechanically into a zone.

Ick... it's an extremely poorly written and confusingly worded power.

Note that as written it isn't a close burst attack - it's a close burst which creates a zone - the zone then attacks. So the druid would be a "creature within the zone or adjacent to it", so would be subjected to the initial attack.

Of course, as Jack99 pointed out the druids square isn't in the zone, so unless he moves it (unlikely, as he'll probably be dazed by the initial attack) he won't be effected at the start of his turn.


And, as written, it'd permanently be a zone with a hole in the middle.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Gribble, I agree.. very poorly written. It should be a close burst attack followed by an effect line that creates the zone.

So, what happens when you move the zone? Does the little "eye" in the middle ever get "filled in"?

For what it's worth, pending official clarifications, I'm going to rule that the zone excludes the central square until it is moved....

The way I read this power is that the initial effect is a close burst that doesn't affect the caster, altho the square is filled with vermin. The resulting zone covers the entire area, but the autodamage keys on the start of the turn.. so the Druids options are to:
a> cast the swarm and move it away from him
b> cast the swarm and move away from it
c> cast the swarm and take damage next turn for starting within it

Better, IMO, that tracking a hole in the zone because I don't need to remember that and the player has to make some interesting choices.

 

[gribble]

The way I read this power is that the initial effect is a close burst that doesn't affect the caster, altho the square is filled with vermin.

Whereas I read it differently, RAW. The initial effect is a close burst 1 which creates a zone. The area of effect of a close burst 1 is well defined - it's every square adjacent to the attacker (not including the square he occupies), so it has a "hole".

The zone (note - not a close burst attack) then attacks every creature in or adjacent to it - including the attacker, who by definition is adjacent to the zone.

On subsequent turns, creatures starting their turns in the zone take the damage and grant combat advantage. When the druid sustains it, he increases it's "size" by 1. Again, this is poorly worded, because there's no definition I'm aware of for "size". It could equally mean increase it to a burst X+1, or add 1 square to the area. e.g., does the following:

xxx
xox 
xxx

increase to:

xxxxx
xxxxx       xxxx
xxoxx  or   xox
xxxxx       xxx
xxxxx

It's also unclear if this increase is a close or area burst (one includes the origin square, the other doesn't). Assuming it remains a close burst, then the "hole" is always there and can't be filled - increasing from a close burst 1 to a close burst 2 is still a zone that doesn't affect the origin square.

 

[MaximumHavoc]

Ick... it's an extremely poorly written and confusingly worded power.

Note that as written it isn't a close burst attack - it's a close burst which creates a zone - the zone then attacks. So the druid would be a "creature within the zone or adjacent to it", so would be subjected to the initial attack.

Of course, as Jack99 pointed out the druids square isn't in the zone, so unless he moves it (unlikely, as he'll probably be dazed by the initial attack) he won't be effected at the start of his turn.


And, as written, it'd permanently be a zone with a hole in the middle.

after rereading the power, i see how it is not a traditional close burst attack; however, i still do not see how the druid's square is not in the zone. is this a rule regarding zones? if so, would you please direct me to that rule? if, instead, this "hole" in the zone is based on the close burst rules, then i can tell you that this has been well established as the caster being unaffected, not the caster's square.

possible interpretation of creeping doom: if creeping doom is, in fact, a zone that is acting as a persisting close burst (mechanics-wise), then the druid would be free to move around in the zone (i) without being affected by it and (ii) without creating a "hole" in it.

The area of effect of a close burst 1 is well defined - it's every square adjacent to the attacker (not including the square he occupies), so it has a "hole".

i believe this is incorrect. as i previously quoted:

"unless a power description notes otherwise, a close burst you create does not affect you. however, an area burst you create does affect you." PHB 272

this subject has been thoroughly discussed previously. just trying to clear up this misunderstanding.

 

[Hawke]

Fun! I'm now respecing my winter-controller-themed druid into a swam-theme... I'll drop the insect fluff and replace it with living blizzard. Exciting!

 

[Cadfan]

Are you guys sure that a close burst creates a square with a hole? I thought it created a square with no hole, but with the additional rule that it doesn't affect the caster. Not that it doesn't affect the caster's square, that it doesn't affect the caster himself.

 

[FireLance]

after rereading the power, i see how it is not a traditional close burst attack; however, i still do not see how the druid's square is not in the zone.

Are you guys sure that a close burst creates a square with a hole? I thought it created a square with no hole, but with the additional rule that it doesn't affect the caster. Not that it doesn't affect the caster's square, that it doesn't affect the caster himself.

After re-reading the rules, I think you are right. I think I might have misinterpreted the rules because of the illustration of a Close burst 1 in the PH. If I remember correctly (I'm away from the book right now), the squares around the caster were highlighted, but the caster's square was not.

 

[gribble]

After re-reading the rules, I think you are right. I think I might have misinterpreted the rules because of the illustration of a Close burst 1 in the PH.

Yeah, that's what I was basing it on as well. Seems it will affect the attacker's square, so no hole.

There's still the problem that it'll attack the attacker though. He's not affected by the close burst attack (which creates the zone), but by my reading of the rules he'd still be affected by the zone's attack. Unless there's a ruling somewhere at the creator of a zone is immune to it... and I could see that one causing other issues...

 

[Jack99]

Are you guys sure that a close burst creates a square with a hole? I thought it created a square with no hole, but with the additional rule that it doesn't affect the caster. Not that it doesn't affect the caster's square, that it doesn't affect the caster himself.

It does, but the picture in the PHB indicates the square-with-hole-in-the-middle which frankly is just a hilarious concept, so it had to be brought into this debate.

To be serious, I do not see the issue. Close burst powers do not affect the caster, and I am pretty sure that is the intend here as well. So that's how I will be playing it. As in it doesn't affect the caster. At any point.

 

[MaximumHavoc]

To be serious, I do not see the issue. Close burst powers do not affect the caster, and I am pretty sure that is the intend here as well. So that's how I will be playing it. As in it doesn't affect the caster. At any point.

i like your approach, although it would be a new direction for zones historically (well, 4e historically). hopefully, creeping doom will be wotc's opportunity to provide further guidance with respect to zones.

as an aside, i really do enjoy seeing old names reappear; in this case, creeping doom. some of them bring me all the way back to 1980. *shudder*