Can you use 2 Staffs of Ruin?

[Thundershield]

Dual Implement does not care about Twin Weapon fighting. Dual Implement does not care about that staff is a double weapon. Double Weapon does not make the staff into two implements.

The fact is, you're only wielding a single implement. Handedness does not apply to implements, which is why you can one-hand a staff for implement attacks.

As much as I hate disagreeing with you, Draco, this was elaborated in an earlier thread where a Swordmage asked if Dual Implement Spellcaster would allow him to apply the bonus from each end of a double-sword, and the responses from CustServ and the official FAQ were that it indeed was a legitimate combo as a double weapon in effect counts as two individual weapons/implements, but it needs to be a double weapon (or a staff wielded by someone with Staff Fighting).

However, as Rick and Dalzig already pointed out, it's hardly a superior combination. The bonus from the Staff of Ruin is an item bonus, which doesn't stack with other item boni (or itself, for that matter), and it's arguably cheaper to get an extra implement for your off-hand than burn a feat on getting proficiency with a double weapon or turning the staff into one, and getting a second implement also means you can have something with different properties and powers in your off-hand, but each to their own.

I'm more worried about the arcane casters picking Dual Implement Spellcaster and off-handing a Staff of Ruin for a +12 damage bonus to all their attacks as the Staff's property states that the item bonus applies whenever the staff's enhancement bonus does and the Dual Implement Spellcaster feat does indeed state that you get to add the enhancement bonus to damage. So far I've house-ruled that the Staff of Ruin's property only applies when the enhancement bonus is applied by normal means (i.e. main-handing it).

 

[Caliber]

Seems I'm late to the party but it's ok because the other posters already got my previous post's back. Thanks guys!

I feel your pain Markn, I rolled up a pretty rough "striker" Wizard using my afore mentioned trick and the Genasi add Str to Wizard damage feat. I haven't pulled him out for play yet but just looking at him tells me he is going to be a nasty beast in combat.

Thunder, I don't think your specific idea is that bad. They still can't get a larger bonus than using a Staff of Ruin as a double weapon, they just get an additional property on top. And you're talking a pretty heavy level of investment when you require a specific +6 implement, another +6 implement, and a feat.

 

[Nifft]

Dual Implement does not care about that staff is a double weapon. Double Weapon does not make the staff into two implements.

The rules disagree with you here.

The rules may change, but until they do: what I wrote works.

Cheers, -- N

 

[BruntFCA]

Dual Staff of ruin does not stack

Now if you take the "Staff Fighting" feat. You can treat your staff as a double **WEAPON**. Pretty handy for the abilities with the *weapon* keyword

From what I can see, spells don't carry the "Weapon" Keyword.


When you use the staff, you have to choose if are you using it as a weapon (in which case it is in effect a nothing but a double ended *quarterstaff* for melee attacks, or as an implement.

To get two implements, you would have to re-write Staff Fighting to say, treat your staff as a double weapon or two as implements.

Even if you disregard the above, moreover, you are attacking with 1 Staff (your not a ranger, and your not using them as weapons either), so assuming you have dual implement, you get for example +4 if you are holding two +2 staves, however, the *ruin property* only comes off the particular staff that you are choosing to attack with.

For the "double bubble" scenarios to work, you would have to be capable of applying the property of both your main hand and offhand weapon/implements to your attacks. You can't do this, you choose, which one will apply. Just because you dual implement, does not mean that you can concurrently apply, for example, a radiant vulnerability and cold vulnerability.

A ranger with the dual strike ability can apply 2 sets of weapon properties, but only then weapons and not implements, and wizards are not rangers.

 

[keterys]

WotC has consistently ruled that weapons used as implements apply to implement powers, so basing an argument on the contrary will likely not pan out.

At any rate... as far as I can tell, you can indeed get 3xEnh to damage. Or concretely, no matter how you happen to wield or get the items... you get Enh always, you get 2nd Enh if you have dual wield always, and the staff of ruin adds its Enh if you main hand and cast through it or dual wield implement it.

Fwiw, this is still about one Enh below Reckless + Armbands and two Enh below Bloodclaw + Armbands in terms of potential damage output, but if you add in dragonshards you can close the gap with Reckless.

And yeah, it's very silly and they've definitely abandoned the 'your items don't matter much' concept.

 

[DracoSuave]

Naw, I can see how it works. A double weapon is 'like wielding that weapon in both hands.' -That weapon- refers to the object in question, and staff fighting therefore allows you to treat your quarterstaff as though you were wielding it in both hands, which then allows double enchantment bonus from Dual Implement.

All it saves you is gold, however, and +1 ac from the Defensive trait. You can't double up on properties -or- powers in this manner, if for no other reason than the double weapon property explicitly enforces properties and powers to apply only to the main hand.

So, while you -can- dual wield a staff of ruin, you might be better off just dual wielding two different implements, making one of them a staff of ruin, and your off-hand something with a useful power or property. Say, a Lightning Quarterstaff if you're a Storm Sorcerer.

Also: No property except for the Crusader's Weapon assigns a damage type to attacks. The rest have a power that does it, which is what permits keyword inheritance.

So if you have a Lightning Quarterstaff in one hand and a Frost Quarterstaff in the other, you -can- use both powers at the same time to make the attack a Cold, Lightning attack. Tho, this is 'Your DM Decides' territory, so don't take this as pure gospel.

 

[BruntFCA]

Staw Man

I was attacking a straw man.

Yes, you can get 3 times damage, as you could if you had 2 separate staves or 1 staff and some other implement such as an orb. For some reason I got it into my head that people were trying to get 4 times the damage (in other words activating the property of the staff in the other hand as well).

If WoTC say its now 2 implements who am I to argue, though none of their descriptions make this clear. As is a the staff (which can be treated as a quarterstaff) is a 2 handed weapon anyway, so all the staff fighting gives you is the ability to "light off hand" and get the +1 AC.

I could see staff fighting being useful to a multiclass ranger/barbarian with power attack who wants to alternate between 2 handed and dual wield.

Personally I'd rather have the staff in 1 hand and an orb in the other; if you want to melee smack something just use ghost hand to sheath the orb.

I wish WoTC gave more "Janet and John" or Ryi and Goku examples or something; trying to interpret some of this stuff ends up being not fun and just giving you a headache!

 

[Ryujin]

Indeed. This whole thing about the off-hand side of a staff not getting the property has me wondering if it could be given a separate property as an 'upgrade', in the way that a magical weapon with no additional properties could be.

.... Not really, but it's left rather open to interpretation, and that's a subject for another debate

 

[DracoSuave]

Indeed. This whole thing about the off-hand side of a staff not getting the property has me wondering if it could be given a separate property as an 'upgrade', in the way that a magical weapon with no additional properties could be.

.... Not really, but it's left rather open to interpretation, and that's a subject for another debate

No, because double weapons -explicitly- deny properties to off-hand attacks, only main-hand attacks. It's part of the double weapon trait itself.

So if you have a lightning double sword, and your lightning is on, -only- the main-hand attacks deal lightning damage, as the power is -explicitly- forbidden from working on the off-hand attacks of a double weapon.