Third Party: If So, Then What?

I would too love a VoLK-like product for 4E.

But I don't understand the focus on new campaign worlds discussed lately in the thread.

I think most lock-out issues would go away if you limited your scope to writing a series of "Points of Light"-compatible* adventures, where the focus was on story and encounter design.
If all the 3pp are writing PoL adventures how do they distinguish themselves from one another. A setting like Midnight allowed GR to distinguish Midnight material from other "generic" material in a way that certainly helped earn GR a reputation for good products.

Likewise, if all I can do is PoL adventures, I would become extremely bored. Most 3pp writers do this because it is fun. (There's no real money involved.) Fun is making the feats and races and classes and variants that make the game interesting or that make the reader think outside the box. Writing PoL adventures is going to be boring eventually.

Perhaps the WotC crowd is more discerning, having moved on from the generally low quality of d20 stuff? 4E does demand a higher standard of presentation.

(Not saying this is so. Just offering an equally unfounded counter-view)

If this is true the WotC crowd also will not by adventures from 3pps since they regard them as d20 hacks.

pawsplay said:
If I write a Generic Medievalish, it's probably not going to work with any of the published settings. So who do I sell it to? 4e fans who don't play in any of the published settings? In practice, I have to pick one of the settings and write for it, with adaptation to other settings being of secondary concern.
Huh? 3pps can't write for FR, Dark Sun or Eb. None of that stuff is in the GSL.
 

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As I have stated on numerous occasions before, I think it not a matter of hardcore or not, but more of a "OGL-fan or not"-thing. Sure, those who buy a lot of OGL-products are usually "hardcore" buyers, but there are plenty of others (and probably a lot more) who buy everything WotC puts out and who can thus be considered just as "hardcore". And they probably went with 4e for the most part ;)
I think you would find your self quite surprised. I think it is far from "a lot more" who just bought everything WotC. And I also think "for the most part" going to 4E could be quite a bit off. I'm not saying they all went to Paizo by any stretch. But the "we blindly follow whatever the new version of the game is AND we buy everything that WotC publishes" group is a pretty small piece of the gaming community.

They is a ton of common ground for both "4E is making a lot of money" and "4E could be making a whole lot more money for WotC", not to mention "4E could be making a whole lot more money for WotC plus 3PPs".

PS: Using the word hardcore with regards to gaming made me chuckle..
I don't know that hardcore would be my choice of word. But if we are using it as the opposite of "casual", then it fits.
 

As an aside, my anecdotal evidence* seems to indicate that the use of the CB is far from 100% among the 4e players I know. Some players don't want to pay for the DDI; some players don't like the DDI or CB for whatever reason; some players just prefer an alternate "output" -- so while they might use the CB, they don't print out the power cards or character sheets; they write things by hand. And if you're going to write things by hand, then using third-party stuff is no big deal.

* Yes, I'm well aware of the dangers of anecdotal evidence, and I frequently rail against it, but it's all I've got. Heh.
In my F2F group, I believe I am the only one with a DDI account, except maybe one other player is made, but in my online VTT game, almost everyone has a DDI account. So, there you go with my anecdotal evidence. Incidentally, in these same two groups, only one or two of them are active on D&D boards and maybe half don't even know the names of some of the main 3PP companies.

I wasn't even aware of much of the 3pp market, until towards the end of the 3.5E era. I completely missed the heady early days of 3E. (I was still on my very long hiatus away from gaming at the time).

Back in the day, the only 3pp I was aware of was Judges Guild. Their modules looked kind of amateurish compared to TSR's offerings back then.
I am the opposite. My first 3.0 campaign was the Freeport Trilogy from Green Ronin. The PCs then jumped to the mainland and entered The Banewarrens from Malhavoc. I have DMed Midnight, Oathbound, Scarred Lands. Rappan Athuk and Lost City of Barakus set in the Wilderlands from Necromancer, In that one I replaced the city of Endhome in Barakus with Warwick in Wilderlands. It worked awesome because I started them in a Goodman Games 1st level adventure. Another time I ran the first 20 levels of Drow War series (1-30 AP) from Mongoose, and did Savage Tide and Age of Worms. It was awesome and I loved it. I don't think I did one WoTC adventure for 3.x all the way through....

So, I was 3PP all the way... I bought PDFs, a ton of them in the early years, from everyone. Bluffside, Phil Reed's "A Dozen....." series from Ronin Arts... it was all good.

I wish the 3PP 4e market was like that. But it would require a finely linked and standardized data standard to work well. Then data could be shared by applications. The same kind of tools that are supposedly pushing out the 3PP market.
 

If all the 3pp are writing PoL adventures how do they distinguish themselves from one another. A setting like Midnight allowed GR to distinguish Midnight material from other "generic" material in a way that certainly helped earn GR a reputation for good products.
Ummm. Green Ronin didn't do Midnight. Fantasy Flight Games (FFG) did Midnight.

But I understand the point you were trying to make.
 
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By writing their own modules, or doing a fair amount of conversion work.
The amount of work is really quite small. A lot of the time all a DM will have to do is plonk the module down in their world and maybe change a deity name or two. You're trying to exagerate a factor which is at best, a minor issue.

If somebody is interested in buying 3pp at all, then they're not going to sweat changing all the 'Sun God' mentions to 'Pelor' or 'Lathander'.

Are you saying it's false I can't use their fluff, false that there are limitations on how much I can change something before it becomes incompatible, or false that Waterdeep exists in the FR? Because if you are saying any of those things, I think you and I have different definitions of the word "false."
I am saying it is false that you have limited ability to write your own fluff without making the product incompatible. You can write boatloads of fluff without this happening, and compatability issues are further negated by the DM's ability to adjust their version of the setting.

If all the 3pp are writing PoL adventures how do they distinguish themselves from one another.
A setting is not the only way you can make a product diverse, and you can insert your own 'mini setting' into the scenario- in fact drop-in locations are one of the other products people have been talking about on these threads.

Even if you don't do that, you can make a module unique in any number of ways, based on the situation the module is based around. You could do a module based around thieving and skulduggery, or byzantine plots, or vengance, or a particularly type of monster(make them good enough and the DM won't miss the monster builder that much), there are all sorts of different ideas and content that can go into a module to make it unique, distinctive, and entertaining.

Frankly if somebody is doing a module and it isn't distinctive and full of it's own character, then they're probably not making a very good module.
 
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The amount of work is really quite small. A lot of the time all a DM will have to do is plonk the module down in their world and maybe change a deity name or two. You're trying to exagerate a factor which is at best, a minor issue.

If somebody is interested in buying 3pp at all, then they're not going to sweat changing all the 'Sun God' mentions to 'Pelor' or 'Lathander'.

I am trying to be honest about my perception. If you think my opinion is wrong, just say so. No reason to accuse me of trying to exaggerate or whatnot. You don't know me.

I am saying it is false that you have limited ability to write your own fluff without making the product incompatible.

I feel like I'm having a hard time understanding. You're saying I have an unlimited ability to write fluff without making a product incompatible?
 

Ummm. Green Ronin didn't do Midnight. Fantasy Flight Games (FFG) did Midnight.
I blame old age. :)

A setting is not the only way you can make a product diverse, and you can insert your own 'mini setting' into the scenario- in fact drop-in locations are one of the other products people have been talking about on these threads.
A setting is not .... you can insert your own mini setting? The more you make your mini setting "interesting" the more likely it is your adventure loses the ability to be just dropped in to any campaign. The whole point of the PoL adventure is that the surroundings are bland (from a writing point of view). Every town has dangerous woods and strange hills and distant perilous mountains. The more you detail these places, the less your customers are able to pickup and run the adventure in their home campaigns.
 

I think you would find your self quite surprised. I think it is far from "a lot more" who just bought everything WotC. And I also think "for the most part" going to 4E could be quite a bit off. I'm not saying they all went to Paizo by any stretch. But the "we blindly follow whatever the new version of the game is AND we buy everything that WotC publishes" group is a pretty small piece of the gaming community.

It's amazing that you can't help yourself with the snide comments. But I have to reject your version of reality. Buying all books does not equal blindly following. I leave that to the people who cannot remember the forum rules.

As for who is bigger and/or has the bigger number of "hardcore" buyers, you may be the one who could find yourself surprised. Either way, we will probably never know.
 
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I am trying to be honest about my perception. If you think my opinion is wrong, just say so. No reason to accuse me of trying to exaggerate or whatnot. You don't know me.
I've repeatedly said that I think your opinion is wrong. And I think it's fair to say that you're exagerating a minor issue, or rather, an issue that all products face. Every DM adapts to some degree, all products must take that into account to some degree.

I feel like I'm having a hard time understanding. You're saying I have an unlimited ability to write fluff without making a product incompatible?
No, I am saying it is false that you have limited ability to write your own fluff without making the product incompatible.

The ability to write your own fluff without making the product incompatable is not limited, it is in fact quite substantial. I am not saying that it is unlimited, and by suggesting that you are being deliberatly obtuse.

When you originally used the term 'limited' you most certainly did not mean it as 'not unlimited'. You meant that there was only a small degree of fluff a writer could create, as indicated by your broader argument. This assertion is false.

You can write plenty of fluff for an adventure without running into the problem that you described, to the point where the problem you described is a minor issue at best, or more accuratly, the issue of adapting modules is ever-present and no more problematic for 3pp creators than other creators.

A setting is not .... you can insert your own mini setting? The more you make your mini setting "interesting" the more likely it is your adventure loses the ability to be just dropped in to any campaign.
This is simply not true.

It doesn't matter how interesting I make a module based around a murder mystery, it's not going to be incompatable with FR or eberron unless I include major elements that conflict with those settings.

It doesn't matter how cool and interesting the background of a spooky family in a module is, that spooky family can still exist in Oerth or Krynn or wherever with few problems, unless they're activly clashing with the setting. For instance, a group of people who can spontaniously create water and iron would not fit in Dark Sun- but that's how far you'd have to go to really get the kind of clash you're suggesting.

Sure, mood is an issue, but not as much as people may claim. And there is planety of space for different moods and subgenres in most generic settings. You can run a horror adventure in Krynn, you can run a romance subplot on Athas. A decent campaign tends to vary the mood anyway- doing so is an asset to the game.

The whole point of the PoL adventure is that the surroundings are bland (from a writing point of view).
Rubbish.

Every town has dangerous woods and strange hills and distant perilous mountains. The more you detail these places, the less your customers are able to pickup and run the adventure in their home campaigns.
That simply isn't true. Most settings have wilderness, and most make it pretty dangerous. Even the ones who don't can use a pol adventure, and the pol ones can still make use of the majority of adventures that are, for instance, set in a city, or a town, or on a trade route, or in the woods, in a desert, ect, ect.

If you detail a forest, that doesn't prevent people from picking up your product. After all, there's plenty of room for forests! and plenty of wilderness areas described in existing 4e WOTC products and modules.

The most pol assumes is that there aren't any overly large kingdoms or nation-states, but there are still city-states and cities of reasonable size.
 
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The most pol assumes is that there aren't any overly large kingdoms or nation-states, but there are still city-states and cities of reasonable size.

Couldn't one just create a whole entire new island, continent, or planet, to accommodate an overly large kingdom or nation state?
 

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