arguing with my DM: The Leadership feat(and a wizard)

The issue here is not one of power, but of fairness. If the paladin were also not allowed Leadership, I think we could all agree the GM is within his rights to say, "I don't wish to define NPC relationships in my game that way." But if the paladin can have followers, the wizard should be able to.
But it doesn't seem like "fairness" is the issue to me. The DM is basing his decision on roleplaying aspects. He doesn't think it makes sense for the wizard PC to have leadership based on the character concept the player went with. To me, it seems like the player is using "roleplaying" and "character concept" as an excuse to get to powergame.

It may be bad for the DM to do that, but I don't think he's thinking about "fairness"...he's trying to keep the PC in line with the concept (although he probably shouldn't be doing that himself).

If it were about being "fair", then I hope the paladin PC also got something to vastly improve his statistical flaws. I wonder if the DM provided other players with custom feats that allowed them to lower scores in order to raise other scores, but then turn that small penalty they should have for doing this into a huge bonus instead.

I have a question for the OP, did you ask the DM if there is a way you can use your Int score as the Will bonus, or did he just surprise you with that feat? I don't mean to be stuck on this feat issue, but my point is that the DM may be trying to keep you from powergaming. The leadership feat is a very powerful feat that is taken advantage of by players most of the time. He may feel that letting you use this feat when he's already let you get away with not taking other penalties may just be too much.
 

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The leadership feat is a very powerful feat that is taken advantage of by players most of the time.

The leadership feat can be a very powerful feat that is taken advantage of by players whose characters have high Charisma and/or "Great Reknown" and other miscellaneous Leadership score bonuses most of the time.

I can see how a DM who has been burned in the past by a Sor or Pal with Leadership (and thus a cohort at level-2 and vast stable of followers for the character's whole career) is hesitant about it. But some weedy Wiz is NOT going to get a very game-changing cohort or followers, unless that DM is free and easy with those miscellaneous Leadership score modifiers.

(I managed to pull off Leadership cheese with a Wiz once, but I started with a 16 Cha [in a point-buy game, so it wasn't cheap] and was given some of those very bonuses I mention above.)
 

I'm with Oryan here. You build up a character concept that is obviously weighted towards being antisocial, and you have some character building cheese (25 Int at 7th level? Geez!).

You get a freebie power that overlooks your big weakness, and that's pretty awesome. And now, there really is no IN CHARACTER reason your character would want followers. Would ever think of attracting them.

Not to mention, the GM is probably thinking "gee... do I really want all of the PCs with followers? Fair or not, that would ruin the campaign".

I say, make your case, and if it doesn't work, oh well. Don't dig your feet in... you've already gotten away with a lot, don't push your luck.
 

IMC there are some feats (and Leadership is one of them) which players have to justify with roleplaying. I usually tell them when one or another feat is available to them when they gain a level. For example, if any of them would have made friends with a NPC, I'd tell them: "You can take Leadership to have X as a companion".

It's the same with prestige classes: Do you want to be a Red Mantis Assassin? No problem. Just find their secret hideout, manage not to be eaten by giant lizards, gain their leader's respect and complete a special initiation mission, and it's done! ;)
 

have him watch the TV show House...a wired diffently low cha border line sociopath...with followers...
I dunno, House can be very charming when he wants to be, and is a pretty good liar. I'd say he usually doesn't use it, but he has at least decent Cha.

As for the discussion, Leadership is a bad feat in general, but if one person can have it, there's no reason not to let everyone take it.

EDIT: Bad for the game, that is.
 

As a DM... and from experience.. I HATE the Leadership Feat. But if your DM has let another player take trhe feat, then you should be able to take it too. Look to Dragonlance for an example. Raistlin is a deplorable character but he has a student. His apprentice chose him BECAUSE of Raistlin's knowledge and power. Go the same route. :)
 

I dunno, House can be very charming when he wants to be, and is a pretty good liar. I'd say he usually doesn't use it, but he has at least decent Cha.

As for the discussion, Leadership is a bad feat in general, but if one person can have it, there's no reason not to let everyone take it.

EDIT: Bad for the game, that is.

Let's look at it this way.

Leadership can be a bad feat for the game, if every character in the five person party has it. If even half the party has it, in fact. But if just one guy has the feat, it actually helps the game - there are suddenly extra NPCs to do the dirty work, freeing up the PCs for all the fun, heroic stuff.

So, one guy in the group having leadership isn't really a bad thing. In such a situation, who would you want to have it? The paladin who has been built around that sort of thing... or the PC who was, since the beginning of the campaign, described as a misanthropic loner?

Here's another reason why I'd bar it. The paladin is gonna attract fighters, paladins, things like that - NPCs that can basically make attacks, and that's it.

The Wizard is gonna attract... more wizards. VASTLY expanding the level of spells available to the party. Think about it - you could make sure you always have that useful 2nd level spell memorized, without having to carry a buttload of scrolls. Not to mention that spells tend to take more time to resolve than attacks... a wizard with followers is REALLY gonna slow down play, especially if he's not the only one WITH followers.
 

The issue here is not one of power, but of fairness. If the paladin were also not allowed Leadership, I think we could all agree the GM is within his rights to say, "I don't wish to define NPC relationships in my game that way." But if the paladin can have followers, the wizard should be able to.
I think DMs are within their rights to say any crazy thing they want about the rules of the game they're running. So even if he says "rocks fall, everyone dies," I think he's well within his rights.

But more directly to your point, it's only fair if you consider "equal treatment for each character" to be fair. I don't. I expect rogues to do better at traps, and they're going to get favoritism with regards to trappy things. I think that's fair. I expect half-elven diplomacy bards to be exceptionally good at social interactions, and I'm going to give them advantages that other low-charisma characters don't have. I think that's fair. And in the case here, the DM is essentially saying, "The charisma limitations of the Leadership feat need to be more extreme." That ruling will mean that certain characters get cut off, and certain ones don't. Frankly, I think that's fair -- it's not targeting this guy's character specifically, it's targeting anyone with low charisma. For all we know, there is another low-charisma character who will also never see the feat because of this. So it doesn't seem like a case where the DM is picking on this player. (But I haven't seen their interactions, so I can't really say.)

Your DM is an extremely generous DM just for letting you use your Int score for your Will saves. That alone is an incredible advantage for your PC.

Did you bother to argue with your DM that maybe this new feat is overpowered? I doubt it. So why are you going to post here in hopes of getting more ammo to use against him so you can pester him about his decision about the Leadership feat? That's obviously your intent.
Yeah, it's bad form and may piss off the DM if he catches wind of this thread.

My guess is that the DM was already feeling a bit overly generous with absurdly high Intelligence score, and then felt doubly generous with the "use Int for Will saves" ruling. At this point, he probably feels there is some quid-pro-quo that needs to happen -- huge advantages have been conferred, and in exchange, he's probably expecting that no more advantages can be had, or at least whatever paltry negatives are left will be preserved. Now here comes the player asking for a feat that typically is only useful to high-charisma leaders. And the DM is thinking, "What the hell? This guy has so many advantages, and now he wants to use a charisma-driven feat, and I'm supposed ignore that charisma was supposed to be his dump stat? Gaaaah!"

I imagine that if the DM is pushed on this, he's going to compensate somehow. The initial advantages were probably given in good spirit. If he's brow-beaten into this one, he'll be resentful enough to undermine it somehow. That will frustrate the player when unforeseen issues arise. For example, the cohort is targeted almost immediately in battle, dies, and then the player has a penalty to his Leadership score. The player is like, "What? Are you deliberately trying to force my Leadership feat to suck?" And the DM will say, "Nope, them's the breaks."

In my experience, leadership has little to do with charisma.

Effective leadership is about self-belief and strength of character. It's about values and the example you set.
Which is... charisma.
 
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(25 Int at 7th level? Geez!)


To be fair:

20 Int at start (if you have a +2 Int race that is) is min-maxing, but not shocking
+1 at level 4
+4 headband of intellect (a bit early to get a +4 stat boost, but isn't unheard of, and certainly isn't player-generated cheese)
=25 Int at level 7
 

Maybe you should have a talk with the DM about what exactly you want out of the leadership feat. Both from a storytelling and mechanical perspective, because I bet you guys can find a compromise if you hash it out.
 

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