"Math glitch" -- explanation or pointer?

[Jeff Wilder]

In poking my head into a couple of threads, I've seen discussion of a relatively recently discovered glitch in 4E's attack/defense math.

Can someone explain this to me (in some detail), or gimme a link to an explanatory thread? I've tried a search, but for some reason I'm not getting useful hits.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well, its not recently discovered - people have been aware of it basically since early 4e (it was made obvious by the various masterwork armours). Discussion became most focused on it when the expertice feats were first released.

Basically, its a result of the fact that over the levels, monster bonuses to attack and AC go up faster than do character defences and attacks.

So, by level 30, monster attacks/defences have gone up +29 as they get +1 per level.

On the other hand, a PCs attacks and defences have only gone up by +25 (disregarding any math fixes such as expertice or masterwork armour), and only if the player has always boosted the relevant stat.

+15 from the "every other level" boost, +6 for item enchantments (from weapon/armour/neck), +4 for stat boosts (+1 each tier, +1 for both the paragon/epic boosts).

Masterwork armour was created to fix this, especially for heavy armour users who don't get the +4 from stat boosts, and therefore would only go up +21 versus the monsters +29.

Hope that helps.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Hope that helps.

It does, thank you. But I have a followup question:

If the problem is known to the designers -- and it presumably is, given the existence of masterwork armor created to "fix" the problem -- why not just fix the math?

 

[keterys]

Indeed. Indeed.

 

[Elric]

To give my summary:

Over 29 levels, from a starting level 1 character (with no magic items) to level 30:
To-hit, AC, and Fort/Reflex/Will gain +21 from levels/enhancement bonuses.

Assume you split your stat boosts to two stats that add to different FRW defenses. One of these stats is your primary attack stat. If you wear light armor, one of these stats boosts AC.

AC gains +6 more: either +6 from Masterwork Heavy Armor, or +2 from MW Light Armor and +4 from increases to an ability score which adds to AC.
To-hit and your two strong FRWs gain +4 more from Primary/Secondary Attribute advancement
Your one weak FRW gains +1 from the ability score boosts at levels 11/21.

So AC gains +27, to-hit and your two strong FRWs gain +25, and your weak FRW gains +22.

Over these 29 levels, monsters gain +29 to their to-hit and to all defenses. Compared to the monsters, players lose 2 on AC, players lose 4 on to-hit and their two strong FRWs, and lose 7 on their weak FRW.

These numbers don't take into account powers, Paragon paths, Epic destinies, or feats. This is just the raw effect of levels, stat increases, and enhancement bonuses of magic items.

 

[FireLance]

I personally believe (disclaimer: I can't point to any quotes or evidence that would support it) that the gap was initially meant to be filled in by powers: there are a number of powers in PH1 that have an attack roll bonus built into the power, grant a bonus to attack rolls, or which impose a penalty on enemy defenses, for example.

Of course, all that does is to turn the feat tax into a power tax.

 

[keterys]

I once thought that, too. Then I actually looked at the powers and saw that there were just as many options in heroic tier as epic tier. And you tend to want to hit first to trigger them at all, so even increased ability scores (for the ones based on ability scores) were of limited gain.

 

[Stalker0]

The big unanswered question about the math is what does the effects of high level powers have on the numbers in combat.

Since players have a lot of powers at that point, and some are very potent, there passive bonuses only tell part of the story.

I started working on some models to try and show this, but real life has put that project on hold.

 

[keterys]

Just out of curiosity, glancing at the PHB...

Wizard: Nothing
Warlord: Stand Invincible (29 Daily) gives +4 Defense, Stir the Hornet's Nest (25 Daily) gives +Int to attack & damage with ranged attacks on hit with heavy thrown on target for the encounter, Sudden Assault (Enc 23) gives +Int to a single attack, Thunderous Fury (Enc 17) gives +Int to attacks for 1 round, Defensive Rally (10 Daily) gives +2 defenses for 1 round, Surprise Attack (Enc 7) gives +Int to a single attack, Hold the Line (Enc 3) gives +2 AC for 1 round, Lead the Attack (Daily 1) gives 1+Int to attack on hit on target for the encounter - +1 on miss, Bastion of Defense (Daily 1) gives +1 defense until end of encounter, Warlord's Favor (Enc 1) gives 1 + Int to one ally for all attacks against target for 1 round, Guarding Attack (Enc 1) gives 1 + Cha to AC for 1 round, Furious Smash (at-will) gives +Cha to attack for next attack on target

So two classes down, and they don't get access to more powers at high level that help out than at low. If anything, they have less. Though, yes, a warlord can hang onto Lead the Attack for forever, it's true. Of limited help when fighting 5 encounters of 5 guys in one day though.

 

[kaomera]

It does, thank you. But I have a followup question:

If the problem is known to the designers -- and it presumably is, given the existence of masterwork armor created to "fix" the problem -- why not just fix the math?

IMO: masterwork is a math fix. Without MW armors (or an equivalent scaling bonus that only applies to heavy-armor wearers) you have to either dump having ability bonuses add to the AC of light-armor wearers, or dump scaling ability scores. As long as you have a variable bonus (because ability scores go up) to some characters' ACs and not others, there is going to be a discrepancy over the course of leveling.

Expertise feats where a reaction to complaints about attacks getting less likely to hit as you reached higher levels. I think, personally, that there may have been a deliberate attempt to make higher levels "harder" (especially since things like "save-or-die" where largely taken out of 4e), but also the designers seemed to feel that players would work to get around the discrepancy. There are a lot of miscellaneous bonuses that players have access to that monsters don't, which in theory would close the gap. IMO the problem is that WotC balanced things too well, such that actually getting +4 in bonuses isn't really that workable.

Feedback proved that players weren't completely happy with this result (to put it mildly in at least some cases), and so they installed a "fix". The main issue with Expertise feats is that pretty much everyone is going to take them. Much like the Iron Armbands and such, including an option that is "the best" (or even perceived as such) works to limit flexibility. As such many groups simply hand out an Expertise feat as a bonus feat.

The system assumes a certain amount of min-maxing. It has to in order to achieve the kind of balance the designers wanted with 4e. The real problem with this, I feel, is that it creates a situation where "bonuses" aren't; they're necessities... Just staying on an even level requires the player to dedicate a lot of their resources to keeping up. And again, that limits flexibility.