"Math glitch" -- explanation or pointer?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

An additional problem is that the expertise only applies to one weapon/implement type, meaning that the feet tax disproportionately hits those who use multiple weapon or implement types. That and the fact that it doesn't affect things like a dragonborn's breath or unarmed attacks at all is what convinced me to make my own math fix instead.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

It does, thank you. But I have a followup question:

If the problem is known to the designers -- and it presumably is, given the existence of masterwork armor created to "fix" the problem -- why not just fix the math?

My pessimistic theory: the math glitch is part of the fundamental building blocks of the game. So to actually fix the math would require WotC to effectively admit to making a fundamental and therefore embarrassing mistake. So instead they publish Expertise & similar feats that almost fix the game for players savvy enough to use them, while leaving less savvy players in the dust.

 

[AngryMojo]

Considering that WotC is generally willling to eratta things they think are broken with an actual eratta document, I've begun to think the math glitch is intentional, and the designers don't feel it needs to be fixed. I think that as you increase in level, you're intended to fight lower-level monsters more and more. Very few level 30+ monsters exist at all, and the few that do are all designed to be one-time, big nasty fights. Minions, however, cap out at much lower than 30.

I may be crazy, but I've found that with this mentality, none of the "feat tax" feats are necessary. Useful, sure. Necessary? No.

 

[Truename]

If the problem is known to the designers -- and it presumably is, given the existence of masterwork armor created to "fix" the problem -- why not just fix the math?

The disparity between player bonuses and monster bonuses is blindingly obvious and clearly intentional. People talk about this 'glitch' as if they've discovered a secret, but I think what they've actually discovered is that there's more to the game's math than basic arithmetic. WoTC had a staff mathematician working on this stuff, for crying out loud.

I think that truly analyzing the game's math requires looking at the probabilistic ranges involved in a day's worth of encounters, considering resource attrition, the action economy, and survivability over time... analysis that no one complaining about the 'glitch' has actually done.

 

[Elric]

The disparity between player bonuses and monster bonuses is blindingly obvious and clearly intentional. People talk about this 'glitch' as if they've discovered a secret, but I think what they've actually discovered is that there's more to the game's math than basic arithmetic. WoTC had a staff mathematician working on this stuff, for crying out loud.

Given that Masterwork Heavy Armors needing immediate fixing in Adventurer's Vault, WotC clearly wasn't paying much attention to the math. There are a ton of obvious "math fixes" in AV and ph-II in the form of Expertise, Epic Fort/Ref/Will, Robust Defenses, and additional Masterwork Heavy Armors.

WotC messed up a lot of stuff the first time around (skill challenges and stealth come to mind). Indeed, they even messed up Expertise in ph-II, which is why they've introduced Focused Expertise to partially fix the math fix. The obvious reason for Expertise has been mentioned; the math errors were a fundamentally wrong part of the game, and admitting that and errata'ing the core books would have been embarrassing (and much better than the solution they chose!).

WotC could have issued errata to increase to-hit bonuses (and FRW defenses, e.g., +1 to hit and FRW at levels 5/15/25), and pointed the errata out somewhere very obvious in PH-II. Perhaps in the feats chapter. "Expertise: We were thinking of printing a feat to fix the to-hit scaling math, but decided to issue errata to the Player's Handbook instead. See the rules update on page..."

Then everyone who bought PH-II would see it, and everyone who didn't buy PH-II but checked the online errata would also have it. As it is, if you don't get PH-II you won't have the Expertise feats, and checking the online errata won't tell you anything.

The designers were asked about the Expertise feats in a podcast; Karinsdad typed out the response here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...9-expertise-justification-17.html#post4824246. They seem rather embarrassed by the Expertise fiasco. At one point a designer mentioned that the feats were going to be addressed in a print article; this never occurred.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well... except for the fact that the first masterwork armours are in the PH, not the AV - all AV did was smooth out the curve and add some non-AC masterwork options.

So, its not clear what WotC was thinking... though what Angry Mojo said makes a certain amount of sense to me, given that the expertise options are at best an imperfect fix.

 

[Tilenas]

My pessimistic theory: the math glitch is part of the fundamental building blocks of the game. So to actually fix the math would require WotC to effectively admit to making a fundamental and therefore embarrassing mistake. So instead they publish Expertise & similar feats that almost fix the game for players savvy enough to use them, while leaving less savvy players in the dust.

I agree with you on the results, but would like to add that even savvy players will find themselves "feat-taxed", as they'll have to take expertise and paragon defenses if they want to keep up.
I don't agree on the cause of the problem. I don't think they went over the math and said to themselves "monsters get +1/level, players get +1/2 levels plus change, yeah that's balanced", but rather had the teamwork benefits of tactical play and certain powers in mind to balance it. This probably didn't work out in actual play (maybe everyone wants to play strikers and the leaders get voted out of certain polls en bloc?!), so they introduced feats that let players keep up with the monsters even without co-operation benefits.

Considering that WotC is generally willling to eratta things they think are broken with an actual eratta document, I've begun to think the math glitch is intentional, and the designers don't feel it needs to be fixed. I think that as you increase in level, you're intended to fight lower-level monsters more and more. Very few level 30+ monsters exist at all, and the few that do are all designed to be one-time, big nasty fights. Minions, however, cap out at much lower than 30.

I may be crazy, but I've found that with this mentality, none of the "feat tax" feats are necessary. Useful, sure. Necessary? No.

You raise a very good point. Just because the game is fairly balanced throughout 30 levels (and it is, nerdrage about broken math aside), your group doesn't have to face monsters of equal level all the time.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Considering that WotC is generally willling to eratta things they think are broken with an actual eratta document, I've begun to think the math glitch is intentional, and the designers don't feel it needs to be fixed. I think that as you increase in level, you're intended to fight lower-level monsters more and more. Very few level 30+ monsters exist at all, and the few that do are all designed to be one-time, big nasty fights. Minions, however, cap out at much lower than 30.

I may be crazy, but I've found that with this mentality, none of the "feat tax" feats are necessary. Useful, sure. Necessary? No.

Good catch.

Although i bet in MM3 there will be a focus on more epic monsters, I feel the same. But it would have been nice, if WoTC had stated it somewhere for newer DMs who don´t know it is possible to fight against lower level threats.

 

[Garthanos]

Good catch.

Although i bet in MM3 there will be a focus on more epic monsters, I feel the same. But it would have been nice, if WoTC had stated it somewhere for newer DMs who don´t know it is possible to fight against lower level threats.

Its not only possible.. but the point is... its very likely necessary and appropriate that you fight against more sub-level threats the higher up you go and sure does seem intentional.

Even if it is intentional the feats being referred to are too good power wise relative to other feats of their level... its like encouraging boring.. and even players who dont like boring are tempted by them or guilted in to taking them etc.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yeah, i would have been glad if the feat was a nonscaling bonus at least. Or if they had left it out at all. Maybe a paragon feat that adds +1 to hit (there are armor specialization feats at this level)

The rest of the problem would have been taken care of by reducing the defenses of solos and elites by 2 points as done in MM2.