What is 4E about?

[Henry]

Not often I chime in as a mod lately, but I'll do so here:

Ladies and Gents, let's keep the civil tone going. I'll speak up and say I've seen some great and insightful posts in this thread from people who AREN'T into 4E, and let's not go painting with a broad brush. In every conversation there will be the occasional snarky or less-than-useful comment, or a person lets their bias show, but let's not assume it's because they haven't considered the issue, or they want to just paint something they don't like in one color.

 

[BryonD]

I find it very interesting that the people who enjoy (and have experience) playing 4e think it's about more than just combat, while the people who dislike 4e keep trying to push the idea that it's all about combat.

Perhaps that is because the people who like 4E and the people who don't (taken in large groups) have different expectations.

 

[Henry]

...Do they honestly believe that those who prefer 4e to 3e would have all remained content with the game as it existed for very much longer? Should WotC have refrained from creating The Book of 9 Swords which also created a significant split in the community even before we found out about its connection to 4e? Isn't it better that 4e fans have found a more satisfying game experience while 3e fans are still being catered to by companies like Paizo?

For me, it was a weird scenario: I came into 4E not liking what I saw: Even playtesting some of it, I was having negative perceptions of what I saw. It was later after having sat down, played, and read the whole thing that I became a "convert" as it were. Just like in 3E, WotC had made changes to the game similar to the way I was playing it - my monster shortcuts, my desires for some AD&D and Basic D&D concepts and features (note not mechanics) coming back into the game to bring play closer to the kind of play I got with those editions. Had there been no 4E, I probably would have continued houseruling the game more and more into something I liked.

I am thankful for the OGL, because without it, Paizo would NOT have been able to cater to 3e fans. I'm sad that, when 4E's time is done, 4E fans WON'T have a vehicle to keep catering to the game they love, and they'll be in the same boat that the Dragonsfoot and Knights & Knaves fans were a few years back. Hell, the whole Old School Renaissance owes thanks to the OGL.

 

[Dannager]

You're assuming you know exactly who plays 4e and who doesn't. You also assume you know exactly what and how other people think. Oh, and you're assuming you know the reasons people have for answering the question. And we all know what happens when you assume~

You also sound a wee bit like a conspiracy theorist, especially that last bit. "Notice how the flag looks in these pictures of the moon landing...! This is not coincidental!"

Actually, a number of the posters in question are either well known for not liking or playing 4e, or had links to personal pages in their signatures that made their preference clear. And, obviously, I'm not the only one who noticed it.

But really, your reaction isn't unexpected. No one likes being labeled as merely the product of a trend. Unfortunately, however, that's what's happened here. The line is drawn pretty clearly, and which side of that line you happen to be on is affecting perception (or perception is affecting which side of the line you're on).

 

[Dannager]

For me, it was a weird scenario: I came into 4E not liking what I saw: Even playtesting some of it, I was having negative perceptions of what I saw. It was later after having sat down, played, and read the whole thing that I became a "convert" as it were. Just like in 3E, WotC had made changes to the game similar to the way I was playing it - my monster shortcuts, my desires for some AD&D and Basic D&D concepts and features (note not mechanics) coming back into the game to bring play closer to the kind of play I got with those editions. Had there been no 4E, I probably would have continued houseruling the game more and more into something I liked.

I am thankful for the OGL, because without it, Paizo would NOT have been able to cater to 3e fans. I'm sad that, when 4E's time is done, 4E fans WON'T have a vehicle to keep catering to the game they love, and they'll be in the same boat that the Dragonsfoot and Knights & Knaves fans were a few years back. Hell, the whole Old School Renaissance owes thanks to the OGL.

I'm hoping that the vast majority of 4e fans will feel comfortable making the transition to 5e at that point.

 

[Henry]

...No one likes being labeled as merely the product of a trend. Unfortunately, however, that's what's happened here. The line is drawn pretty clearly, and which side of that line you happen to be on is affecting perception (or perception is affecting which side of the line you're on).

One more time: Guys, can we drop this line of questioning?

 

[Dannager]

Perhaps that is because the people who like 4E and the people who don't (taken in large groups) have different expectations.

Okay, then what sorts of differing expectations would explain the descriptions we're seeing from either side?

 

[Henry]

I'm hoping that the vast majority of 4e fans will feel comfortable making the transition to 5e at that point.

I can hope so, too -- but I grew REALLY used to the comfort zone of "open source" where game mechanics are concerned, and am sorry to see it gone.

 

[BryonD]

Okay, then what sorts of differing expectations would explain the descriptions we're seeing from either side?

Does it matter? Henry is asking us to drop it. So, *some kind* of sorts of differing expectations exist and that is just the way of life in general. What some people may perceive as "pushing" an agenda may actually be just presenting a different POV. No need to argue it.

 

[Raven Crowking]

The most telling part about this thread is the treatment which certain participants afford 4th Edition. I find it very interesting that the people who enjoy (and have experience) playing 4e think it's about more than just combat, while the people who dislike 4e keep trying to push the idea that it's all about combat. Very interesting.

I looked at it as, "What do you spend the most time prepping? What do you spend the most time discussing? What does the company line seem to be pushing most?" YMMV.


RC