Musings on the "I Win" Button

[Majoru Oakheart]

Yeah. Outside of flanking, each PC was generally playing his own game.

Well, not entirely true. At least everyone who was doing hitpoint damage of some sort was getting the monster closer to dying. It is only the combined damage of all the party members that defeats the monster.

It just sucks that if a monster has 300 hitpoints and the melee people spend 4 rounds doing 280 damage only to have the monster fail a save or die. Everyone else may as well just have missed all their attacks for all it mattered.

 

[Oni]

Well, not entirely true. At least everyone who was doing hitpoint damage of some sort was getting the monster closer to dying. It is only the combined damage of all the party members that defeats the monster.

It just sucks that if a monster has 300 hitpoints and the melee people spend 4 rounds doing 280 damage only to have the monster fail a save or die. Everyone else may as well just have missed all their attacks for all it mattered.

I can certainly understand not liking SoD's (I've waffled back and forth on it myself), but I don't really feel like this particular line of reasoning is very solid.

Who goes and lobs off SoD's when something is obviously on its last legs, or the fight is well in hand? If neither of those are obvious why would someone feel as though they'd been robbed? It's not as though the players should know the HP totals of what they're fighting. What if the SoD failed to work? Why did the caster let everyone waste all that effort for 4 rounds rather than just going for it up front? It just seems kind of contrived.

 

[Nifft]

Well, not entirely true. At least everyone who was doing hitpoint damage of some sort was getting the monster closer to dying. It is only the combined damage of all the party members that defeats the monster.

That's an argument for more spells like the power word series, which required enemies to be stabbed a few times before the Wizard got to unleash his doom upon them.

In my experience, the debuffs like slow were more generally effective (and more fun). So it may be possible to salvage most of 3.5e's goodies.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Who goes and lobs off SoD's when something is obviously on its last legs, or the fight is well in hand? If neither of those are obvious why would someone feel as though they'd been robbed? It's not as though the players should know the HP totals of what they're fighting. What if the SoD failed to work? Why did the caster let everyone waste all that effort for 4 rounds rather than just going for it up front? It just seems kind of contrived.

Although not the best example, it still illustrates the point. There's no way to know when a creature is on its last legs. Some DMs won't give any kind of hint at all. I once had a DM who said "It's still alive and attacking you" every time someone asked how the monster looked. Even at 1 hitpoint.

Still, that's not the point. Even if it was round one and you charge, crit and do 100 damage in a single attack. You are all proud of yourself and then the Wizard casts a SoD spell and the enemy fails its save. There goes your 100 points right out the window.

A better example is when you have a caster doing negative levels or stat damage as their primary "Win Condition". The Wizard is doing Int Drain every round while you are doing hitpoint damage. It's simply a race to see who gets their respective number down to 0 first. If the enemy isn't a spellcaster, the Int Drain has no effect on the enemy until it reaches 0. Same thing with hitpoints. Negative levels at least have some cross over, but only a small amount.

Even a lot of SoS spells pretty much end the combat. If a Hold Person works, it's likely the battle is over. Anyone can simply Coup de Grace the enemy, so it might as well be a SoD.

 

[Garthanos]

That's an argument for more spells like the power word series, which required enemies to be stabbed a few times before the Wizard got to unleash his doom upon them.

In my experience, the debuffs like slow were more generally effective (and more fun). So it may be possible to salvage most of 3.5e's goodies.

Cheers, -- N

Intimidate anyone?... a target that is bloodied has reached a point where a part of them is starting to recognize... ummm I might loose this fight.

 

[Hussar]

One thing I've always missed from earlier D&D was morale rules. While I'm not sold on the 4e version with intimidate, at least it's something.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Well, not entirely true. At least everyone who was doing hitpoint damage of some sort was getting the monster closer to dying. It is only the combined damage of all the party members that defeats the monster.

It just sucks that if a monster has 300 hitpoints and the melee people spend 4 rounds doing 280 damage only to have the monster fail a save or die. Everyone else may as well just have missed all their attacks for all it mattered.

Those 4 rounds kept the mage alive long enough to cast his save or die spells.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Those 4 rounds kept the mage alive long enough to cast his save or die spells.

I guess that might have been true if the mage didn't have a better AC than almost anyone else in the party due to spell stacking, not having to spend money on a magic weapon(so all of it was spent on defensive magic items) and the 3rd most hitpoints in the group(due to needing only 1 stat and being able to spend points on Con, plus a +4 Con item. We're also used to playing in Living Greyhawk where you don't roll for hitpoints, you get 3 per level as a Wizard and 6 per level as a Fighter).

 

[ExploderWizard]

Still, that's not the point. Even if it was round one and you charge, crit and do 100 damage in a single attack. You are all proud of yourself and then the Wizard casts a SoD spell and the enemy fails its save. There goes your 100 points right out the window.


Even a lot of SoS spells pretty much end the combat. If a Hold Person works, it's likely the battle is over. Anyone can simply Coup de Grace the enemy, so it might as well be a SoD.

It sounds like PC's are very competetive in your games. In our group anything that ends a fight faster (ending in victory of course) and keeps the party from expending more resources or taking more damage is a good thing. Sometimes monsters make thier saves a lot and a wizard seems underwhelming.

I guess that might have been true if the mage didn't have a better AC than almost anyone else in the party due to spell stacking, not having to spend money on a magic weapon(so all of it was spent on defensive magic items) and the 3rd most hitpoints in the group(due to needing only 1 stat and being able to spend points on Con, plus a +4 Con item. We're also used to playing in Living Greyhawk where you don't roll for hitpoints, you get 3 per level as a Wizard and 6 per level as a Fighter).

These issues seem to be WOTC edition related and not so much to do with save or die effects. The staple D&D wizard is a glass canon that needs the other party members for protection. The offensive power a wizard has is paid for by weaknesses in defense and melee combat. If the rules provide end runs around those weaknesses then there will be problems.