Warhammer 3e Demo Experiences -OR- How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bits

I'm afraid I simply cannot imagine why someone would want to count and manage little symbols (comets, hammers, green clovers, etc.) when they could use numbers instead. Beautiful, crystalline, pure numbers. Have we lost an appreciation for their loveliness?

Speaking as a math major (graduated, but it feels weird to call myself a mathematician), I hate numbers. :) Ok, that's a lie, I love numbers; I hate arithmetic.

Uh.. since when are numbers not symbols?

Since always! Of course numbers aren't symbols! Numbers are abstract concepts.

Now, there are these things called numerals which are symbols to represent numbers. But numbers themselves? Not symbols. At least, not in the sense you're thinking. Certainly a number *could* be a symbol, just like a flag is a symbol. 13, for example, might be considered a symbol for bad luck. But that's an entirely different meaning of the word symbol, and I'm assuming you meant symbols as in glyphs.
 

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From what I've seen of the game thus far (admittedly very little) it feels a lot like a self-contained roleplay game more than a traditional RPG. Something more on par with 'host a murder' and similar games. There seems to be more room for collective storytelling, but at the same time I wonder how much room exists for mechanical variety and expression.

I'd be willing to learn and play the system. This new approach to RPG design is certainly interesting.
The price however is a sticking point for me, and I can't see myself making the initial investment.
 

Got a chance to play on sunday, and loved it. I'll be picking this game up as soon as I finish my current campaign. Not familiar with previous editions of WFRP, so I can't speak to thematic concerns, but anyone who avoids this game because it looks like a board game is doing themselves a disservice.

The dice system is simpler than it looks--it'll be second instinct by the end of your first session. This feels like the sort of dice rolling you do in story-emphasis games like World of Darkness or 7th sea, rather than more combat emphasis games like D&D.

The only use of cards that seemed boardgame-like was being dealt three possible careers from the career deck and choosing one. But apparently, previous editions did the same thing, only with percentile rolls. In general, cards seem to replace things that would be on randomized tables in other games (i.e. critical hits), or are entirely non-randomized and put in card form purely for ease of use (i.e. action cards)

Had a chance to look through some of the rule books. I'm pleased to say that the Wizard and Priest books are 75% setting info, and only 25% rules. Presumably the other too books are a bit crunchier.

responses to specific posts below the fold:
[SBLOCK]
Are the dice faces carved in, or are they just printed on like the doom dice? Those doom dice wore away far too fast for rpg use.
carved in--and far more deeply than I've seen on most other dice. The dice themselves seem to be made of a harder plastic that your average rpg dice too.
and what about minis, movement and tactical positioning in combat?
cardboard character standees--if your familiar with the character markers from arkham horror, these are the same thing. Looks like there was one for each career, plus a number for various monsters. Movement was very abstract--you were either at long range, medium range, short range, or engaged in melee. The action cards tie into this--My archer had a covering fire ability that gave penalties to all enemies in an engagement, and a sneak attack ability whose target must be engaged with an ally--and being bow abilities, they both required me to not be engaged myself.

More importantly, what support for out of combat abilities does that system give?
By itself, the dice pool system adds a lot of character to out-of-combat skill use--where in D&D, you might just roll a climb check to climb a steep mountain, in WFRP3, you have to decide whether you're going to be reckless (and potentially risk injuring yourself) or be conservative (and risk delay) the GM can assign fortune or misfortune dice to checks--theoretically not much different than the ubiquitous +2/-2 modifiers in D&D, but the tangibility makes them much more obvious, and I expect it will have players paying much more attention to the circumstances of their actions.
Talents (especially reputation talents) and special actions add to this. So far, one of the coolest things I have seen in the game is an out of combat action card. Action cards are all double sided, and you choose the side corresponding to your stance--In this particular card, the reckless side of the card had "drunken carousing", while the conservative side had "formal diplomacy"
I think I'm selling this game to my groups as the new Warhammer Quest campaign. I think the expectations for WFRP are just different than this game delivers. It seems like a great game, I think for me I just had to let go of it being a pure RPG and embrace it as an Advanced Heroquest or Road to Legend type game.
This strikes me as wrong-headed. People coming to the table expecting to find the WFRP they know and love might be disappointed by the changes in the new edition. But people coming to the table expecting Warhammer Quest are bound to be disappointed.
It sounds interesting but also very different to WHFRP as I remember it. I only played and DM'ed 1st edition WHFRP and the thing I really liked about it was, once one was familar with the system, one could run a game without reference to the books except for chargen.
This version does not appear to have that simplicity. So I have a couple of questions about the feel of the game.
Is is a dangerous to the PCs as the old warhammer?
Is it still careers based? (can you be a rat catcher?)
You can definitely play this game without the books once you're familiar with the system. Anything you'd conceivably need to look up is now on a card. It's still career-based (though apparently the rat-catcher isn't in the core set). At my table, there was a human agent, a high-elven scholar, a wood-elf scout (me), and a dwarven coachman.[/SBLOCK]
 

Since always! Of course numbers aren't symbols! Numbers are abstract concepts.

Now, there are these things called numerals which are symbols to represent numbers. But numbers themselves? Not symbols. At least, not in the sense you're thinking. Certainly a number *could* be a symbol, just like a flag is a symbol. 13, for example, might be considered a symbol for bad luck. But that's an entirely different meaning of the word symbol, and I'm assuming you meant symbols as in glyphs.
I still remember my 4th grade teacher getting aggravated at the class (we were all nine year olds at the time) because we could not grasp the difference between a numeral and a number. She wrote the "number" 5 on the board and repeatedly tried to convince us that this was not a number, resorting to her jumping up and down and throwing her chalk at the board in complete frustration. It's stuck with me to this day funnily enough - there are some things a nine year old just simply does not need to know I suppose.

It's like the look on a fifteen year old's face when you tell them parallel lines can in actual fact meet... the realisation that they've been lied to for so many years as if you were finally telling them the facts about Santa. Or trying to explain the concept of infinity... you know journey, not destination...

I love maths:blush::o

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

Me to.

My point, I guess, is that level of symbolic manipulation needed for either dice methods isn't that far different.
 


Wow... I went into this totally expecting to hate 3e. I even have watched the videos but they did nothing to convince me that I even wanted to try it.

Though, now I can see a ray of light and are rethinking things.

The dice was a turn off... but after reading things here, I like that it replaces +/- that most games have. The symbolism certainly doesn't bother me as I know you will get used to it. I play my fair share of Memoir '44 and the dice have just become background and easy to read at a glance. I suspect the same will happen here.

As, far as the cost. Well I just dropped $90 on the big box Carccassone game. considering what I got with that dropping $100 (most likely less at Amazon or Chapters) doesn't seem that bad especially when you compare getting the 3 books for D&D 4e is roughly the same. The only real difference is that EVERYONE will have to buy the whole set, even if your a player that wants to own it.

Still interesting. I guess I'll keep reading threads like these and reserve judgment.
 

So the numbers on the dice are symbols... or not?

Are they not symbols that hold some abstract meaning?

I'm saying there are no numbers on dice. Numbers don't exist in any physical way. There are numerals on dice. :P

The only real difference is that EVERYONE will have to buy the whole set, even if your a player that wants to own it.

My suspiscion is that they don't expect more than 1 copy to exist within any given group... Or, perhaps, they expect only the GM to buy it, though maybe they're hoping that multiple GMs will each buy their own copies.

In any case, I really don't think they expect players to buy the set, which is certainly a departure from the traditional business model. I'd like to see some sort of "player pack" which just has the main rulebook, dice, and maybe more character sheets.
 

Speaking as a math major (graduated, but it feels weird to call myself a mathematician), I hate numbers. :) Ok, that's a lie, I love numbers; I hate arithmetic.

Ah. I'm a philosophy guy. I love the pure formality of numbers... each one as if uniquely its own species, like the very angels themselves.
 

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