Revisionist game publishing

[mudbunny]

Common sense says that if creature X in the game world can do Y simply by virtue of being creature X then logically the formula is X=Y.

If X does not equal Y under certain conditions then those conditions should make sense within the framework of the game world. If they do not then there will be common sense issues.

"Broken" has no meaning within the framework of the milieu. Broken would thus need a translation that has meaning from within to avoid the logic errors.

One of the central conceits of 4E is that PCs and NPCs/monsters are built using different rules. Given that, of course the abilities and powers of PCs are going to be different from that of NPCs and monsters.

Not accepting that is, of course, going to introduce all sorts of problems with the game.

 

[Phaezen]

Mkay,

A quick search through the compendium shows that of the 13 minotaurs listed as monsters, not one has a large weapon listed in thier equipment.

So there is no reason for PC minotaurs to feel jealous of thier npc counterparts.

True, the damage expressions of some of those npc minotaurs are higher than what thier weapon would suggest, but that is down to appropriate monster damage for level and role. NPC equipment is windowdressing in 4e.

Basically, at the end of the day some pc races given in the Monster Manual, which are flagged as not neccessarily being balanced, had oversized weapons as a race feature. Since then Mike Mearls has come out with a statement that oversized weapons are not easy to balance and no race has that racial feature. I expect the Gnoll to be errated sooner or later.

 

[ExploderWizard]

"Excuse me, Mr. Yes, you with the bull horns on the left, with the Fury-In-The-Slaughterhouse T-Shirt".
"Yeah? What do you want?"
"I happen to notice that you and your friends are wearing really big swords and axes. I don't think I could carry them. Why would this be?"
"Well, look at these muscles and at my hands! Why do you think?"
"So, you don't think it is some kind of racial ability?"
"Huh? Never thought of it. I mean, we're not born with these weapons... But we're are pretty large, eh?"
"Yup. But then... what's with the guy over there. His weapons seem to be smaller than yours."
"You mean Padrin? He just doesn't have the build for it. But it doesn't seem to matter much, because he's really brutal with it. Never seen a more fearsome warrior in my life."
"But you don't think he could not be a "real" Minotaur?"
"You think he's a Changling?"
"No, maybe just a ... Minitaur?"
"Well, you could ask him yourself that... Of course, I am not sure you'd like the answer. But that would be a creative yet also painful form of suicide..."
"Ahahaha. Nevermind then."

Points for dah funny and Padrin has the right to choose lighter weapons but this tale just emphasizes my point. Why do the others have larger weapons? Strength? Size? Both? If there were a STR requirement that Padrin has not met then we don't need the artificial "broken" reasoning.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Points for dah funny and Padrin has the right to choose lighter weapons but this tale just emphasizes my point. Why do the others have larger weapons? Strength? Size? Both? If there were a STR requirement that Padrin has not met then we don't need the artificial "broken" reasoning.

I think the real issue is that the entire "Oversized Weapon" ability is superflous. It is not reflected in the actual Minotaur equipment list. Sure, their damage dice are larger, but it basically "has" to be because of their level, not because of their equipment. A PC will reach similar damage at those levels, even if the expression of that damage will differ.

In the end, one of the good reasons to want to play a Minotaur is not because his race gets the "Oversized Weapon Trait", or to play a Kobold because he has "Darkvision"*. It is because of the visual, the feeling and the story. Damage values are not inherent racial abilities.


*Though I might give a Kobold "Darkvision". It makes sense from a story-perspective that they can see in utter darkness... Thought here might also be a story reason why a PC Kobold would just have Low-Light Vision. Since he is a PC, he probably is more on the surface than other Kobolds, and thus his "darkvision" sense is underdeveloped. Or maybe more his "bright-seeing" sense is overdeveloped.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

By the way, oversized isn't gone from 4e. Bugbears still have it in the character builder.

That's because the Bugbear hasn't been revisited in any other book yet, it only appears in the Monster Manual. Rest assured that at some point in the future, it'll appear either in Dragon or a book somewhere and it'll no longer have that ability.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

That's because the Bugbear hasn't been revisited in any other book yet, it only appears in the Monster Manual. Rest assured that at some point in the future, it'll appear either in Dragon or a book somewhere and it'll no longer have that ability.

I take it this means you are writing the "Winning Races: Goblins" article just now?

 

[JPL]

I'm skeptical of players' appeals to verisimilitude which, if implemented, would coincidentally confer a major game advantage to the PCs.

Personally, I would have no problem with minotaurs all wielding big honking weapons, but leaving the "size" (in game terms) of those weapons rather indeterminate and dependent upon who is holding them.

In other words, NPC minotaurs are using big honking axes that have the game effect of being Large weapons. If my PC minotaur picks one up, he can use it as though it's a Medium weapon. No more strange than the fact that my 50 pound halfling fighter can take more punishment that an ox.

And if someone smallish picks one up, I'd most likely treat them as non-proficient for the first encounter or two, until they get the hang of what is, after all, a big honking axe. Just because that's cool, isn't it? A slender half-elf struggles to swing a huge minotaur halberd, because it's the only weapon at hand . . . but once he gets used to it, stand back.

 

[pawsplay]

Pardon my ignorance, but in 4e, if you kill a minotaur, can you use its weapons? What about an ogre, or a hill giant?

 

[Dragonbait]

Pardon my ignorance, but in 4e, if you kill a minotaur, can you use its weapons?

Yes.

What about an ogre, or a hill giant?

As long as you can wield it.

All equipment that the monster carries is listed at the bottom on the monster's sheet. If they are wielding a longsword that is appropriate for a medium-sized character (and again, like Phaezen said, minotaurs wield weapons appropriate for medium-sized characters and not large despite their ability to use large weapons. They are underachievers, I guess, and don't utilize this) the PCs can use it.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Mkay,

A quick search through the compendium shows that of the 13 minotaurs listed as monsters, not one has a large weapon listed in thier equipment.

So there is no reason for PC minotaurs to feel jealous of thier npc counterparts.

Well, if the other minotaurs are using regular weapons too then the PC isn't missing anything. For me a simple expression of higher damage wasn't the issue. A monster doing more damage with the same weapons because of its powers/abilities isn't a problem.

The issue was purely logical.