Revisionist game publishing

[catsclaw227]

This is fundamentally what sparked me to start this thread. The MM race was never actually errataed, just reprinted and sold with alterations. Since we haven't been using Dragon articles, I'd never noticed that the official race had changed.

Am I alone in thinking that it's weird that some products get corrected with other products? Especially given the fact that WotC does, in fact, issue errata for their products? One error will be fixed for free, while another is only fixed for money.

If you're paying for and using the compendium or the character builder, errata and bought changes will be transparent and essentially the same. If you're not, you're basically running around with a partially fixed game that's out of sync with everybody else's copy.

But, as I understand it, the PC write-up of the Minotaur is neither an errata, nor is it a reprint with alterations.

It is simply a version specifically intended for PCs, unlike the Bugbear (for example) that doesn't have a PC version. The MM entries are intended for DMs and NPCs, but because they aren't official PC races yet, they offer up some stats in case a player REALLY wanted to play it.

The PC writeup wasn't a fix. It was simply a PC write-up.

There are many examples of PC materials being added in later books after seeing the light in other books. How many people made a 1e (or 2e) drow PC before we every saw official PC stats? In the minotaur's case, (IMHO) WOTC simply gave some guidelines so that players wouldn't have to make their DM jump through hoops to come up with some stats.

Personally, I think this whole mess is because the gnome wasn't going to be in the PHB and WOTC was worried and put some PC stats in the back of the MM for gnome, then added other potential PC races to fill in some space and just in case they decide to do a real PC race for other monsters.

 

[keterys]

Something like flight or darkvision, then, is just a trump; it shouldn't mess with anything related to balance in the sense of "being able to affect or go to toe with an appropriate opponent." Either darkvision is going to break the game or it isn't, flight will or it won't.

Drow get darkvision. You can get goggles of night. Who knows if PC kobolds will get it or not, since they never really made a way to do PC kobolds like they did the other races.

But, flight? You don't see how flight can break the game? Here's the relevant hint: give the flyer a ranged attack and see what happens against melee only enemies. You can search up some 3rd edition threads about it if you want. If I recall, one of the good examples is something like the Mountain Giant that a flying 10th level caster can kill - I think it's CR26 or something, though that's clearly wrong too. Though some of the convoluted kill the Tarrasque plans out there fall into the same bucket.

Take a look at Fantasy Craft. It's d20-based and level-based. Yet somehow, it manages to present Unborn (warforged, golems, and the like) as PCs, along with Drakes (small dragons - not dragon-like humanoids, but dragons), giants, and regenerating trolls, all without breaking the system.

I'll see your Fantasy Craft and raise you Rifts. Because clearly a game system containing disparate elements is always a good thing. And hey, in Rifts you can pretty much play whatever you want. Again, obviously a feature. That way Joe can play a homeless guy who wanders from city to city looking for food and a toy bear he lost during the apocalypse, while Barry plays Thor, but wearing full power armor and a fusion rifle.

So yes, there are system tradeoffs, but a good system should be able to handle some very basic variation in PC abilities.

Thankfully, 4e does that. Humans != Eladrin != Genasi != Kalashtar, etc. You just have a more extreme qualifier for 'very basic variation' that apparently includes flight. An ability I'm fine with dnd never giving to its base PCs, frankly.

And Mutants & Masterminds, too. They recently released a swords-and-sorcery campaign book, too. And guess what? Kobolds with darkvision, no problem. Minotaur PCs, no problem. And usually with less fuss and mess than in 4e, to boot.

Mutants and Masterminds is point-buy... you pay for every racial ability you get in the currency that directly impacts your other abilities. D&D is level-based. We've tried the 'pay levels for abilities' route before in 3e, in several different ways, and it mostly came up short in public opinion. Which means that playable races shouldn't be things that go too far beyond the other races. That's as much a feature of level-based games as M&M's flexibility is one of its features.

 

[pawsplay]

But, flight? You don't see how flight can break the game? Here's the relevant hint: give the flyer a ranged attack and see what happens against melee only enemies.

Melee only enemies have a number of issues, dealing with flyers being but one of them.

I'll see your Fantasy Craft and raise you Rifts. Because clearly a game system containing disparate elements is always a good thing. And hey, in Rifts you can pretty much play whatever you want. Again, obviously a feature.

I fail to see how I presented that argument. I've already stated that a game with a level-based approach (4e) can do something badly that another (Fantasy Craft) does well. Diverse character options can be done badly or well.

But even Rifts has its advantages. I don't have to do anything to offer exotic PC options. As long as the players are satisfied that everyone has the character they want, there's a lot to be said for that.

Thankfully, 4e does that. Humans != Eladrin != Genasi != Kalashtar, etc. You just have a more extreme qualifier for 'very basic variation' that apparently includes flight. An ability I'm fine with dnd never giving to its base PCs, frankly.

By "very basic variation" I was referring to darkvision. Flight is a more substantive variation, but is also, IME, very much in the realm of good play experiences for characters on a basically human level, not just for superheroes.

Mutants and Masterminds is point-buy... you pay for every racial ability you get in the currency that directly impacts your other abilities. D&D is level-based. We've tried the 'pay levels for abilities' route before in 3e, in several different ways, and it mostly came up short in public opinion. Which means that playable races shouldn't be things that go too far beyond the other races. That's as much a feature of level-based games as M&M's flexibility is one of its features.

Mutant & Masterminds is a level-based system... BAB, Fort, and the rest are all limited by Power level. Within those limits, every character is numerically balanced against other characters. While it is possible to purposefully create a character weak in one area, as a general rule, M&M characters are fairly formulaic when it comes to basic stats.

All the darkvision, flight, and so forth is a side dish. In M&M, darkvision simply comes out of your budget, it has no bearing on how strong your magic missile is allowed to be.

 

[AllisterH]

Um, pawsplay, you do realize that the very first PC race after the PHB (Drow in the FRplayer's guide) HAS darkvision right?

Not sure where this idea that darkvision would be too strong originated from since, as mentioned by WOTC, the races at the back of the MM were simply stop-gap measures until/if proper writeups were given.

re: Flight

Flight not only has combat specific issues a DM has to deal with...It has non-combat specific issues a DM has to deal with it.

One of the things about 4e is that it tries to help DMs by having things in a tier system. By the time you hit EPIC, the bog standard monster OR encounter should be written with the understanding that PCs can fly.

At Heroic, encounters both combat and non-combat flying should be rare to nonexistent. Certainly not to the extent that it's at-will....

(Again, it should be noted that PCs CAN fly in Heroic. They simply can't have PERSONAL flight. Want to fly, do what most people in literature/mythologe do. Get an animal/device such as a hippogriff or a witch's broom

Personal powered flight is more akin to superheroics IMO)

 

[keterys]

Melee only enemies have a number of issues, dealing with flyers being but one of them.

Melee only enemies are a strict staple of the genre. The system needs to be able to cope with them.

I fail to see how I presented that argument. I've already stated that a game with a level-based approach (4e) can do something badly that another (Fantasy Craft) does well. Diverse character options can be done badly or well.

And we're just disagreeing on definitions for the terms badly and well. It's a subjective personal thing - you like one thing, I like another. That doesn't make the system bad. It means you want something else. What _is_ bad is saying the system is bad when it's just different in a way you don't prefer.

By "very basic variation" I was referring to darkvision.

You're going to continually harm your case if you harp on darkvision, since you can get darkvision as a PC in 4E.

Flight is a more substantive variation, but is also, IME, very much in the realm of good play experiences for characters on a basically human level, not just for superheroes.

And here we can disagree. I've played a lot of Earthdawn and D&D in my day, and I feel safe in saying that flight is not a racial characteristic that I need ever see at 1st level in D&D. As a paragon path thing or epic destiny, or via magic item, or transport mechanism? Sure, whatever. But I'm totally fine with monsters and adventures that don't assume flight. The popular example being the Lord of the Rings where they do an eagle assisted drop of the ring in the first chapter

Mutant & Masterminds is a level-based system... BAB, Fort, and the rest are all limited by Power level. Within those limits, every character is numerically balanced against other characters. While it is possible to purposefully create a character weak in one area, as a general rule, M&M characters are fairly formulaic when it comes to basic stats.

Mutants and Masterminds is a point-based system with level-induced maximums. You can get the same effect from other point-buy systems, such as saying 'You guys can have a maximum of one die of damage per 25 CP' - but, yes, the maximum is low enough that everyone caps out on the combat capable stuff. Cause why not.

flight, and so forth is a side dish.

Flight is hardly a side dish even in M&M, where it's a staple trope. Darkvision is also basically inconsequential in the setting.

Either way, you have one core pool of points and can have things like '45 point races' which in D&D (any edition) would be more trouble than it's worth.

 

[coyote6]

Mutant & Masterminds is a level-based system... BAB, Fort, and the rest are all limited by Power level. Within those limits, every character is numerically balanced against other characters. While it is possible to purposefully create a character weak in one area, as a general rule, M&M characters are fairly formulaic when it comes to basic stats.

Power Levels in M&M is not really equivalent to levels in D&D (any version). They have similar characteristics (M&M PL means "this character is this powerful", and level in D&D also indicates power levels), but they are also very disimilar (in 4e, you're going to go through tiers -- not so in M&M; heck, you might never change PL in M&M -- I certainly don't use the "raise PL every 15 xp" thing).

It's also very easy to create overpowering characters in M&M, sometimes unintentionally (i.e., Concealment + Insubstantial + Subtle attacks). I think D&D 4e aims to make that not so possible.

M&M and D&D are different games, so they do things differently.

(FWIW, given a choice between the two, I'd probably rather play M&M; I'm not trying to run either game down.)

 

[keterys]

Anecdotally, I'd also play M&M or 4E, though for different types of games For example I found it much easier in M&M to make characters that were relatively indestructible to certain types of threats (ie, lower powered ones) so I'd want less 'teeming hordes of enemies' and more 'The archvillain and his lieutenants'

I'm less enthused, at the moment, by 3E, GURPS, or HERO. I'd be quite enthused to try some stuff that is new to me, like Fate or Burning Wheel, though I don't know if they're any good personally. Which is part of why I'd be enthused to play them

 

[pawsplay]

Um, pawsplay, you do realize that the very first PC race after the PHB (Drow in the FRplayer's guide) HAS darkvision right?

Not sure where this idea that darkvision would be too strong originated from since, as mentioned by WOTC, the races at the back of the MM were simply stop-gap measures until/if proper writeups were given.

So explain to me again why kobold PCs lack darkvision, when other kobolds have it, if it's not "balance."

 

[AllisterH]

So explain to me again why kobold PCs lack darkvision, when other kobolds have it, if it's not "balance."

Honestly?

Because I think WOTC just threw them out there and didn't realize that their kobold didn't have darkvision.

It needs to be repeated. The PC stats at the back of the MM were never intended to be longterm solutions but simply for those that NEEDED them right this minute. I also think they thought people would realize "Hey, these are subject to change when we get around to it".

Again, the very first product after the MM is the Forgotten Realms Player Guide and right there we see drow have darkvision. And as mentioned, there are magic items in practically the first DRAGON after 4e launched that give Darkvision.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah this sounds ridiculous. A race that evolved into having darkvision as a survival trait should have darkvision. In earlier editions certain races with the best night/underground vision also took penalties when operating in bright light which would kind of self balance for a PC who operated in both environments.

In this case being above ground too long might reduce the vision to low light but negate any penalties for bright light.

Either way "being a PC " is an insufficient excuse to recode the genome.

What is ridiculous is that you actually think that a species that grows up in the dark will spontaneously develop the ability to see in the dark, rather than being totally blind like EVERY OTHER creature that lives underground.

And then complain about how it's so unbelievable that PC kobolds can't see in the dark as well as other kobolds.