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Giving d20 Modern a Try...Anything I Should Know?

ValhallaGH

Explorer
Generally, multiclassing in d20 Modern can be a very good idea.

I would go a step further and say it's assumed, and damn near required.
Yeah.

Mechanically, the biggest design flaw in d20 Modern (and Star Wars Saga, oddly) was the retention of BAB. Incremental base attack bonus is a system that penalizes characters for multiclassing; reduced combat ability (excepting only using full-BAB classes) in exchange for greater flexibility in skills and special abilities.
The problem is that d20 Modern was designed to have multiclassing. Which means having the incremental BAB system (as opposed to fractional, character-based instead of class-based, or some other system) is counter-productive. This is a pretty serious flaw that quickly cripples characters that are multiclassed without regard for their BAB progressions. Worse, it exacerbates the problem with an uneven (spiky) class Defense progression that makes it extremely difficult for most characters to ever hit, even foolish opponents that stand in plain sight ignoring cover.
Saga has the same issue (the skill training rules force a certain amount of multiclassing) and it is a frustrating one as a player.


Again, good luck.
 

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pawsplay

Hero
Starting at 3rd level is a good idea. A 1st level character with an occupation and one class does not have a lot of goodies. Consider that Soldier is an advanced class; if you wanted to run a game based around fairly competent combat types, it would make a lot of sense if the PCs could qualify for the Soldier class. Experienced NPCs are routinely 2nd to 4th level or even higher, even if non-adventurers.

Consider that a Marine needs some ability to use automatic weapons and perhaps drive an armored transport. Simple Weapon Proficiency, Personal Firearms Proficiency, Advanced Firearms Proficiency, and Surface Vehicle Operation (heavy wheeled) is four feats... actually being competent with an assult rifle would probably also call for Burst Fire. SWP is free for most classes, and you can get Personal Firearms Proficiency from the military Occupation. If you burn all your discretionary feats (1st level, bonus feat for human, and 3rd level feat) you can have all of these abilities by 3rd level.

Starting at 3rd level means that a PC's next level, if desired, can be their first level in an Advanced Class.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
So my second dry-run was a little better.

A friend and I decided to run a quick little game of d20M, so I could get a feel for GMing something that didn't require High Gygaxian prose. :) My pal rolled up a much more detailed, much more playable character than I did my first go-around, and I put her in an abandoned warehouse full of ghouls...

The character is Sgt. Gayle Preston, NYPD (Lv. 3 Dedicated Hero with Insightful path, Law Enforcement as starting occupation.) A bit of a rookie, she has only been on the force for about two years. She is cool-headed, observant, and rational (Wis 16), and hopes to one day work in Homicide as a detective (Investigator advanced class.) She carries a standard-issue .357, a PR-34 nightstick, mace, bulletproof vest, all of the usual police gear.

The setting is an abandoned warehouse, where a nest of ghouls has been preying upon the local riffraff and homeless community.

Gayle responded to a mugging call at the warehouse. She arrived to find an apparent assault in progress...until the assailant tore the head off of its victim!

Long story short: while trying to get the monster in cuffs, Gayle realized what kind of creature she was dealing with and put it down with her revolver. When it got back up, she unloaded on it and managed to kill it. As the undead swarmed her, she blasted her way back to the patrol car, and held them off with her shotgun while calling for backup.

She had nearly run out of ammo by the time backup arrived. The police force pushed the "zombies" back into the warehouse and held them there long enough for Department 7 to show up and "clean" the warehouse. The officers were sent to the hospital to heal up.

It was quick and dirty, but oh so much fun.

The biggest change I'd recommend is using the rules for subdual damage from the D&D rules instead of the ones from Modern. Other than that, I think it's a very sound and amazingly flexible system.

As far as books go, I'd strongly recommend the Critical Locations book from WotC, since it has beautiful, full-color maps of most of the places you might need for whichever game you decide to run.

-Nate

I forgot about that. The rules for subdual damage are ludicrous.
We haven't run into subdual damage yet...I didn't know it worked differently from D&D. I've noticed that a lot of things have changed from D&D for no apparent reason (like alignment, for example. Was this really a game-killing issue?) Do you think it would break the d20M game if I kept 90% of the rules from D&D that we are already familiar with, like tripping, grappling, sundering, subdual damage...


Talien's website is really good. I would recommend checking it out.

His book Blood and Blades: A Profiler's Guide to Slashers that he did for RPGObjects is also really good. It contains many movie slashers done with the serial numbers filed off. Among the familiar concepts that you will find covered are Freddy, Jason, Chucky, Pumpkinhead, Sil (from Species), the Tall Man with flying spiked metallic orbs(Phantasm) and, I think, Jeepers Creepers (there are more, but I don't recall which). I only wish there was an appendix or sidebars that used the Psychic's Handbook (Green Ronin) mechanics instead of the standard d20M mental fx rules and Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth for magic fx (I really dislike the default d20M fx rules).

Unfortuantely, I can't comment on Blood and Spooks or Blood and Brains as I have not seen
Holy crap, the Profiler's Guide to Slashers sounds absolutely wonderful! My wife is a bit of a Michael Meyers fan...that supplement would be like candy for her.

2. You're one of the few. But you can bring it back, since the Allegiance system is equally anemic.
The Allegiance system seems okay enough, I guess, but we really like the alignment system of D&D. It's a simple and effective way to summarize a person's general ethos in two words or less.

I think Buffy the Vampire Slayer is one of the best campaigns you can run with vanilla d20 Modern.
Are there any published Buffy d20M splatbooks, or pet projects, or something out there? A quick Amazon search didn't turn up anything.

And, yet, fora Buffy game, I'd still want Blood and Fists and a $2.25 pdf supplement called Campaign Builders: Modern High both of which are published by RPGObjects and written by some hack named Charles Rice (a.k.a, Vigilance). /jk Vig
(lol) Could you point me to a link for this supplement? $2.25 is just about the limit of my price range, at least until after Christmas...but maybe Santa will be nice to me.

From my experience:
- Using the Cover rules as is can make for long, frustrating combats.
That's what happened in our "Post-Apocalyptic" campaign, at least. We changed it to cover granting damage reduction against ranged attacks. Not a perfect solution, but people constantly shooting each other without anyone hitting can get boring - mixed with the occassionally lucky roll, which then tends to be mostly problematic for player characters (because they are shot at more often than individual NPC, having to survive multiple battles).
Please note that all these effects were probably magnified in this campaign:
- We had to rely on Pistols for quite some time, so in addition to cover, range factored in constantly. An enemy with a rifle was not only very dangerous, but also a tempting target. ;)
- We were playing an online game.
See how green I am at this? I didn't know the d20M rules system well enough to know that it used different rules for cover and concealment...we just used the regular D&D ones when the squad was laying down cover fire to keep the ghouls in the warehouse. It worked just fine...I think we will keep doing it.

Ah, the promise that was d20M.
Was? I'd love to hear about your lackluster experience with the game, since everything else I have heard so far has been more or less positive. I'd like to hear both sides of the story.

Otherwise, the one supplement that I think everyone should have is the d20M Players Companion from Green Ronin. It is filled with all kinds of goodness: talents, feats, equipment, advanced classes, and more.

For house rules, I would increase the options for using Action Points and rework the vehicle skills along the lines of Craft and Perform, i.e. Drive becomes Drive (Auto) (Heavy Vehicle) (Boat) (Submarine), etc. This will reduce the need for several feats, and it will mean that a character won't have to wait two levels before learning how to fly a helicopter.
Yeah, that is pretty annoying. Do you have these house rules already written-out somewhere, in an easy-to-post-to-this-thread format?


Though, you need to watch out for the +0 BAB problem. It is all too easy to have a great character concept that is a multiclass of two core classes and an advanced class that all have +0 BAB. Such a character will never be effective in combat. To address the +0 BAB problem, I recommend that you use the fractional attack bonuses from Unearthed Arcana.

Another problem is that due to the restricted character builds offered by the core classes, it can be difficult to meet the prerequisites for some of the Advanced Classes. So, plan ahead.
I didn't notice that until you mentioned it...now I can see how that will cause some problems later on. Maybe I'll tackle multiclassing in my next test run...

Starting at 3rd level is a good idea. A 1st level character with an occupation and one class does not have a lot of goodies. Consider that Soldier is an advanced class; if you wanted to run a game based around fairly competent combat types, it would make a lot of sense if the PCs could qualify for the Soldier class. Experienced NPCs are routinely 2nd to 4th level or even higher, even if non-adventurers.

Consider that a Marine needs some ability to use automatic weapons and perhaps drive an armored transport. Simple Weapon Proficiency, Personal Firearms Proficiency, Advanced Firearms Proficiency, and Surface Vehicle Operation (heavy wheeled) is four feats... actually being competent with an assult rifle would probably also call for Burst Fire. SWP is free for most classes, and you can get Personal Firearms Proficiency from the military Occupation. If you burn all your discretionary feats (1st level, bonus feat for human, and 3rd level feat) you can have all of these abilities by 3rd level.

Starting at 3rd level means that a PC's next level, if desired, can be their first level in an Advanced Class.
Maybe I have an over-idealized view of our nation's military force, but I wouldn't necessarily say that a fully-trained, fully-equipped Marine is a first-level character. :) Third level seems about right to me.

Excellent feedback, everyone. Thanks for all of the great tips.
 
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See how green I am at this? I didn't know the d20M rules system well enough to know that it used different rules for cover and concealment...we just used the regular D&D ones when the squad was laying down cover fire to keep the ghouls in the warehouse. It worked just fine...I think we will keep doing it.
I think it are the same. Though 3.5 might have more simplified rules. But typical cover - like standing around a corner - will give you a +4 bonus. That's nothing to be sneezed at, and add NPC class defense bonus and/or armor bonuses, and you end up with very hard-to-hit values.
 


Greg K

Legend
Personally, I don't consider the BAB thing a problem. I find it perfect if I want my character to be the guy on the team that is a non-combatant. If I want someone with a good BAB, I'll focus primarily on Strong, Tough and/or Fast, and use occupations , a decent Intelligence score, and feats supplemented by other classes.
 

ValhallaGH

Explorer
Consider that a Marine needs some ability to use automatic weapons and perhaps drive an armored transport. Simple Weapon Proficiency, Personal Firearms Proficiency, Advanced Firearms Proficiency, and Surface Vehicle Operation (heavy wheeled) is four feats... actually being competent with an assult rifle would probably also call for Burst Fire.
You forgot armor proficiency. At least Light, possibly Medium (depends upon how you stat up the various vests used over the last few years) or even Heavy.

Marine Artillery (PFC / LCpl) Feats:
Simple Weapons Proficiency [freebie given by all base classes]
Personal Firearms Proficiency [1st]
Advanced Firearms Proficiency [human]
Exotic Firearms Proficiency (Cannons) [bonus, 2nd]
Armor Proficiency (light) [occupation]
Armor Proficiency (medium) [bonus, 4th]
Surface Vehicle Operation (heavy wheeled) [3rd]

Because of the high feat requirements to do anything, basically trained military personnel are at least 4th level, and often are in the 6-12 range.
Special operators will generally end up in the 12-24 range (and the system only goes to 20).

Modern had a lot of potential but it screwed up a number of things that it needed to be successful. One was the BAB thing, another was requiring a feat for anything that requires special training IRL, a third was having over 50 skills when most PCs get 6 skill points per level, another was keeping firearms anemic and weaker than punching with fists*, then there was the thousands of tiny differences between standard d20 and modern (cover, maneuvers, etc.) which needed to be learned or referenced, finally there was the decision to make talents worth .5 to 1.0 feats instead of being powerful.

*A) a Strong / Martial Artist can kill an M1 Abrams with a charge attack. B) an RPG-7 can't kill an M1 Abrams in less than two attacks, and those have to be critical hits for near-max damage. C) 4E style Brutal weapons would be great for bumping up a particularly nasty firearm or class of firearm.


Good luck.
 

pawsplay

Hero
Maybe I have an over-idealized view of our nation's military force, but I wouldn't necessarily say that a fully-trained, fully-equipped Marine is a first-level character. :) Third level seems about right to me.

Consider what a 1st level D&D character can do. A Wizard can bend the laws of nature and blast someone with magic. A Paladin can wear the heaviest armor and use powerful weapons, in addition to having supernatural powers. A rogue is proficient with a nice selection of weapons and light armor and has both sneak attack and a special trapfinding ability. 1st level D&D character characters are heroes. Even in AD&D, they start out looking, dressing, and fighting like whatever they are.

One of the many unmentioned changes in d20 Modern is changing PC competence. A 1st level Modern character is unquestionably a beginner. Probably the most competent 1st level characters are a first aid expert or a muscle-bound melee monster, who can start with nearly everything they need to be competent. Soldiers, police, investigators, pilots, infiltrators, and the like all require a number of feats to be effective, and d20 Modern starves characters for feats. If you were to convert a D&D fighter to d20 Modern, he would have Armor Proficiency (light, medium, and heavy) and Archaic Weapon Proficiency... and equivalent d20 Modern characters gets only one of those feats. True20 recognized this and started everyone off with three extra feats so they could train their initial concept.

So to summarize, characters in d20 Modern need more feats than D&D characters to do their jobs, but receive less. Therefore, 3rd level. There is no such thing as a 1st level ninja in d20 Modern.
 

fireinthedust

Explorer
Modern had a lot of potential but it screwed up a number of things that it needed to be successful. One was the BAB thing, another was requiring a feat for anything that requires special training IRL, a third was having over 50 skills when most PCs get 6 skill points per level, another was keeping firearms anemic and weaker than punching with fists*, then there was the thousands of tiny differences between standard d20 and modern (cover, maneuvers, etc.) which needed to be learned or referenced, finally there was the decision to make talents worth .5 to 1.0 feats instead of being powerful.

This.

Maybe it was the simulationist approach to games that persisted throguh the d20 system. Not a bad thing, mind you, but a complicating factor to a game night. Granted, creating a system for a modern game means simulation.

So is it a bad simulation, or a bad game? Or do the lines blur and break down in RPGs like d20 modern?
 

fireinthedust

Explorer
Another recommendation: check out Monte Cook's World of Darkness for ideas for a Magic system. In general it might work for what you're trying to do.

I've never tried it, tho. If anyone has, I'd love to hear about it.
 

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