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The Bane of the 3ed DM: Monster Advancement, Class Levels, and Prep Time

Great discussion everyone. Lots of good info in here. I'm still absorbing it all but I wanted to respond to this before I head out for the night:

But most of the time stats are so unimportant I can make them up and it doesn't matter.

I'm not singling you out Crothian but this sort of the heart of the issue for, at least as a designer. If most of the stats can be made up, then why use them at all? Why not just decide whether the PC (or NPC) succeeds or fails at any given task?

Now that's obviously an extreme example but it illustrates my point.

If calculating stats is so cumbersome and fudging it doesn't affect the fun for everyone at the table, why go through all the trouble?

So at what point do the numbers matter?

And to put it another way, where is the "winging it" sweet spot?
 

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I'll present three scenarios. Assume you are prepping for sessions that would involve these creatures or encounters.

How would you go about preparing the stats you would need?

Just the HD/Class Levels, rough description, no other stats needed.

What format would you use for the actual game session?

None, I don't prepare monster stats at all; I always make them up as they are needed.

How much prep time would you estimate you would need to stat each encounter or creature?

Very little.

The leader of the derro is a 13th-level wizard-necromancer. Exploring the stronghold with him is his inner circle of twenty or so 8-12th level henchmen of various classes - warriors, rogues, and casters (of all types).

Scenario 2: The PCs have been tracking the operations of a band of assassins led by a particularly cunning wererat bugbear. He is a level Ftr 2/Rog 5 that fights with 2 kukris.

Scenario 3: Your demon-hunting, planar-hopping campaign is coming to a close. The final battle will be a solo battle against the Demon Queen, a 24-HD Huge Marilith. Since it is a solo boss fight, you want to give the marilith an AOE tail sweep attack that can knock down opponents.

That's already all the information necessary. I wouldn't write down/prepare anything beyond that.

What is your general feeling on monster and NPC customization in the 3ed system?

Very easy to use, since everything is formulized and streamlined so much. Of course, you do need a good understanding of the mechanics and what is possible.

Do you tend to use creatures "out of the book" or do you customize?

Both. Standard; Advanced (i.e. more HD); with Class Levels.

I rarely use "weird" monsters, though. Almost all come from the standard Monster Manual. I guess I like the classics. :)

What short cuts do you use that makes your preparation easier and faster?

Just using a really rough framework and filling in the necessary details on the way.

What do I need a fully worked out NPC statblock for, if all I need to know is one or two of the stats.

Basically, I have an empty statblock in my mind and fill in the details when they are needed... so this guy is pretty strong, he gets a STR of 16. From now on he has a STR of 16 (I only write this down, if it might be relevant later, which it usually isnt, so such things are rarely written down at all; I only do that when DMing PbP, because of the longer time frame, so things stay consistent...).

What other types of preparation do you absolutely dread when getting ready for a session?

Thinking of a cool plot is the toughest one for me. :)

Bye
Thanee
 

I'm not singling you out Crothian but this sort of the heart of the issue for, at least as a designer. If most of the stats can be made up, then why use them at all? Why not just decide whether the PC (or NPC) succeeds or fails at any given task?

Single me out if needed, it's not a problem.

I think there is a distinction you are missing or I didn't explain properly. I'm still using the game rules. Opponents have hit points, AC, saves, all of that I just don't always use the official rules to come up with it. I'll just say the bad guy has an AC of 19 and 80 HP. I'll give him +7 to attack and 2d6+3 damage. I'll come up with it just that fast.

I see DMing a little like being the Wizard of Oz. When in these discussions I say what is going on behind the DM screen it does seem like I'm playing a different game. But from the player perspective it is D&D. We use those rules and those books; what I'm changing is not apparent to them unless they are opening monster books and trying to compare the stats of what I'm making up with the official ones.

PC stats are not winged; we go strictly by the rules for the characters. They like that, it's one of the reason we play d20. They like picking feats, and getting spells, and mutli classing. The framework of the game is more for them then it is for me.

I'm not sure what the sweet spot is. It's not something I've ever tried to nail down. One week doing 90% prep work and 10% winging, and the next doing 60% wringing and 40% prep work and then comparing the data. It is more of a time thing and how important it is to the campaign.

Right now in my campaign the PCs are investigating and gathering clues and trying to figure out what it going on. The main bad guy is not even known to them; so his stats aren't important. When we get to the place when they confront him the stats will be done ahead of time. He won't be powerful, but as a climatic scene I like to have more prep time and things done for it so I feel like there is nothing I missed doing to make it better.
 

I would think the tricky part would be keeping the books dry! :D

Books? Bah! I'm barely awake enough to shower, never mind read.

It's way easy to mentally make up supervillains after reading comics for 30+ (yikes!) years, and being able to say, "Hmm, he's PL10, she's PL11, but tank-shifted".
 

How would you go about preparing the stats you would need?
What format would you use for the actual game session?
How much prep time would you estimate you would need to stat each encounter or creature?
I always create full stat-blocks for customized monsters I use. If necessary, I do this in several steps, saving the intermediate results for later use (e.g. first apply a template, then advance hd, then add class levels).

If I use standard monsters, I only create a mini-statblock including initiative (which I pre-roll), hp, and equipment/treasure.

For important encounters I also write up some round-by-round tactics.

I'd also like to note that since our group only meets every 3-4 weeks, I've got tons of prep time, so I don't actually mind that preparing an adventure takes a lot of time. E.g. I finished preparing the current adventure in November and we're still not even half-way through it.
Scenario 1:The leader of the derro is a 13th-level wizard-necromancer. Exploring the stronghold with him is his inner circle of twenty or so 8-12th level henchmen of various classes - warriors, rogues, and casters (of all types).
Ugh. I hate high-level npc spellcasters, and especially wizards. I've done this only twice, so far and both times it took me about five days, spending 1-2 hours each day collecting interesting spells, feats, items, etc.

I'd only create two stat-blocks for the derro henchman but I'd create them to be dual-purpose: I've recently done this for a duergar adventure in which I used three stat-blocks with alternate selections of equipment, feats and powers.

I also probably wouldn't use pure spellcasters. I'd start with a common baseline-statblock using something like a level 4 fighter. I'd also select long-term buffs for at least half of their spells and assume they've already been cast.

I'd say this would take me 3-4 hours depending on the variety of spells I'm striving for.
Scenario 2: The PCs have been tracking the operations of a band of assassins led by a particularly cunning wererat bugbear. He is a level Ftr 2/Rog 5 that fights with 2 kukris.
For lycanthropes I only create a stat-block for the hybrid-form. If it comes to a fight, it's only that form that will matter.
Since most feats are predetermined by picking a two-weapon fighter, this would take me about an hour.

Scenario 3: Your demon-hunting, planar-hopping campaign is coming to a close. The final battle will be a solo battle against the Demon Queen, a 24-HD Huge Marilith. Since it is a solo boss fight, you want to give the marilith an AOE tail sweep attack that can knock down opponents.
Well, I'd _never_ do a solo battle like this. I'd always include minions, typically picking the kind that a Marilith can summon.

Assuming I would actually use her solo: Advancing HD is relatively straightforward. I'd take a few liberties to grant her a few ways to use swift and/or immediate actions. I might also modify her list of spell-like abilities (and assume most of them had already been cast).

I almost never customize monsters by giving them new ways to attack. But I guess, I'd look at the way a dragon's tail attack works and adapt it.

Since this is supposed to be a campaign's climax I would probably spend more time than usual to get her just right. Otherwise I'd say this would take me 1-2 hours.
What is your general feeling on monster and NPC customization in the 3ed system?
Very flexible, but also very time-intensive.
Do you tend to use creatures "out of the book" or do you customize?
For important encounters I almost always customize them. These days I only use standard monsters as minions or for random encounters.
What short cuts do you use that makes your preparation easier and faster?
Apart from reusing stat-blocks (and encounters) I've already created, nothing, really.
What other types of preparation do you absolutely dread when getting ready for a session?
Hmm. As I already mentioned, I hate preparing anything with large spell lists. Even if it's just a bunch of spell-like abilities, I have to look up the spell descriptions beforehand to get an idea about how to use them effectively.

Something I also don't like is preparing complicated encounter areas. If I have a poster map that is close to what I'm looking for I'll take that instead. Fiddling with tiles or drawing on my dry-erase battlemap wastes too much time if done during a session and it's difficult to do this beforehand, since my players may surprise me by going somewhere unexpected.
 

How would you go about preparing the stats you would need?
What format would you use for the actual game session?
How much prep time would you estimate you would need to stat each encounter or creature?

Scenario 1: You are DM'ing for a party of 10th-level PCs. They have been hired to infiltrate an ancient dwarven stronghold to recover an artifact. Unbeknownst to them, it has recently been over-taken by a band of ill-tempered derro who are also looking for the artifact.

The leader of the derro is a 13th-level wizard-necromancer. Exploring the stronghold with him is his inner circle of twenty or so 8-12th level henchmen of various classes - warriors, rogues, and casters (of all types).

That's a terrible encounter. What is the purpose of all those classed dudes? I would design the 13th level necromancer by the book, with an attention toward durability and simplicity, giving him some distinctive strategies. I would give him one 12th level fighter, one 12th level rogue, and two 8th level sorcerer minions (since derro savants are kind of their thing), who would all have reasonable but simple stat blocks with an emphasis on a particular tactic. There are ten 8th level warrior derro all named Fernando, and five missile users all named George.

The necromancer gets his own character sheet. All the other characters get quarter pages. I'd estimate about 30 minutes for the necromancer, about ten minutes for each of the other major henchman, and very, very little time on the warriors. Probably about an hour and a half, total.

Scenario 2: The PCs have been tracking the operations of a band of assassins led by a particularly cunning wererat bugbear. He is a level Ftr 2/Rog 5 that fights with 2 kukris.

So what? Maybe about ten minutes on the stats, and spend spare moments througout the week figuring out his personality. The "assassins" are probably low level rogues, or maybe warrior/experts, with minimal individual characteristics.

Scenario 3: Your demon-hunting, planar-hopping campaign is coming to a close. The final battle will be a solo battle against the Demon Queen, a 24-HD Huge Marilith. Since it is a solo boss fight, you want to give the marilith an AOE tail sweep attack that can knock down opponents.

'I'd steal the tail attack from a dragon or something. I'd probably cut and paste the marilith from the SRD into Wordpad, add any advancements, and stat the tail attack. Maybe fifteen minutes?

--------------
Other questions:

What is your general feeling on monster and NPC customization in the 3ed system?

I love the versatility of the system. I think sometimes insufficient guidance is given on what you might do, rather than everything you could do.

Do you tend to use creatures "out of the book" or do you customize?

Out of the book as much as possible. I view it as a design challenge to use what's there, it saves time, and there is little actual danger of exhausting the potential of that many monsters over the course of even a very long campaign. I only customize when I need something more powerful, I need a classed NPC, or I have a particularly cute/nasty idea. I use the fiendish template liberally, often on the fly.

What short cuts do you use that makes your preparation easier and faster?

Devote maximum skill ranks to X number of skills, then divide up chunks of ranks bit by bit until I have covered everything I need to. Try not to over-think. Use mostly static, predictable choices for feats unless I have something particular in mind. KISS. Ignore finicky questions of balance in favor of asking: Is there a way for the PCs to finesse this encounter and win with light losses (if so, proceed)? Not worry about maximizing every little thing; the players don't know and don't care if the monster's AC is a point higher or whatever.

What other types of preparation do you absolutely dread when getting ready for a session?

I don't dread any preparation, whether it pertains to monsters or whatever. I enjoy preparation. Probably my least favorite thing is dealing with equipment/loot, because of the inflationary assumptions built into 3e.
 

Scenario 1: You are DM'ing for a party of 10th-level PCs. They have been hired to infiltrate an ancient dwarven stronghold to recover an artifact. Unbeknownst to them, it has recently been over-taken by a band of ill-tempered derro who are also looking for the artifact.

The leader of the derro is a 13th-level wizard-necromancer. Exploring the stronghold with him is his inner circle of twenty or so 8-12th level henchmen of various classes - warriors, rogues, and casters (of all types).

Heroforge for the derro stats. Janis Buck's NPC Generator for the henchmen. Spellgen for the derro's spells, and a separate single spell list representative of each type of henchman caster.

Scenario 2: The PCs have been tracking the operations of a band of assassins led by a particularly cunning wererat bugbear. He is a level Ftr 2/Rog 5 that fights with 2 kukris.

Either Heroforge or DMGenie for the wererat bugbear. Janis Buck for the assassins.

Scenario 3: Your demon-hunting, planar-hopping campaign is coming to a close. The final battle will be a solo battle against the Demon Queen, a 24-HD Huge Marilith. Since it is a solo boss fight, you want to give the marilith an AOE tail sweep attack that can knock down opponents.

Either heroforge or DMGenie.

--------------
Other questions:

What is your general feeling on monster and NPC customization in the 3ed system?

Do you tend to use creatures "out of the book" or do you customize?

What short cuts do you use that makes your preparation easier and faster?

What other types of preparation do you absolutely dread when getting ready for a session?

Thanks!

Customization is painfully slow - otherwise there wouldn't be so many different electronic aids - these significantly speed things up. I generally run them out of the book unless they are a humanoid-type of main bad guy. Droz the Evil Fighter Lord gets the full treatment - his orc henchman come right out the book.

The biggest headache for me is actually deciding which spells the NPCs are going to cast - especially clerics, as they know all their spells.
 

I'll
I'll present three scenarios. Assume you are prepping for sessions that would involve these creatures or encounters.

How would you go about preparing the stats you would need?
What format would you use for the actual game session?
How much prep time would you estimate you would need to stat each encounter or creature?

Scenario 1: You are DM'ing for a party of 10th-level PCs. They have been hired to infiltrate an ancient dwarven stronghold to recover an artifact. Unbeknownst to them, it has recently been over-taken by a band of ill-tempered derro who are also looking for the artifact.

The leader of the derro is a 13th-level wizard-necromancer. Exploring the stronghold with him is his inner circle of twenty or so 8-12th level henchmen of various classes - warriors, rogues, and casters (of all types).

Look up derro on The Hypertext d20 SRD (v3.5 d20 System Reference Document) :: d20srd.org and note their characteristics.

Go to the NPC wiki and look for 13th level necromancers/wizards/sorcerers.

I think there is a 13th level gnome conjuration specialist wizard in one of my modules, I'd check it quick and consider using him as a base for the villain.

Copy over the one that looks like it will best serve my needs and basically apply derro as a template adding on 3 monstrous humanoid HD, sneak attack, size small, and note that he is megalomaniacal insane.

I'll tweak the spells and equipment if I don't like them, and maybe apply stat adjustments for size change if I have time and don't start with a gnome/halfling spellcaster. Feats I'd probably use the base ones, though if I spent a lot of time I might consider others (probably the sudden metamagics).

For the other henchmen I'd peruse the gnomes and halflings in the npc wiki of roughly the level range and change them to derro adding on 3 HD.

If I had a ton of time and was inspired I'd make everyone from scratch

Scenario 2: The PCs have been tracking the operations of a band of assassins led by a particularly cunning wererat bugbear. He is a level Ftr 2/Rog 5 that fights with 2 kukris.

Look up bugbear and lycanthrope and rat in the online srd then give him 2d10 and 5d6 hd, bump up his saves, figure out improved two weapon fighting, give him weapon focus and improved crit on kukris, glance at either the sample NPCs in the DMG or NPCs on the wiki for general level of magic gear. These are generally offensive feat things that fit with the concept and the fairly striker role of an assassin. Note the classes give +5 BAB so he's got an extra iterative over the base bugbear.

If I have a ton of time I'll review my copy of Complete Guide to wererats for further inspiration, maybe give him a wererat specific power/feat.

For the other assassins I'll probably peruse the wiki and use some straight.

Scenario 3: Your demon-hunting, planar-hopping campaign is coming to a close. The final battle will be a solo battle against the Demon Queen, a 24-HD Huge Marilith. Since it is a solo boss fight, you want to give the marilith an AOE tail sweep attack that can knock down opponents.

go to the marilith first and figure how much advancing it takes to go up to 24 HD. Huge is a pain for the stat adjustments, but I expect I'd look them up and adjust accordingly. Normal outsider advancement is easy (d8 HD, +1 BAB, all good saves, power DCs go up 1/2) so I'd do that. For the tail thing I'd just add it on, probably going with an area trip mechanic. I'd probably give some trip feats and quicken spell like abilities to help with her solo aspect.

--------------
Other questions:

What is your general feeling on monster and NPC customization in the 3ed system?

Tons of options, CR evaluation for winging abilities like the marilith tail sweep is hit or miss the more you go from scatch.

Adjusting stats and size is a pain because of all the follow up calculations and consequences. Adding on appropriate NPC gear is a serious pain.

Do you tend to use creatures "out of the book" or do you customize?

Both. Depends on time and inspiration.

What short cuts do you use that makes your preparation easier and faster?

Ignore skills, don't sweat figuring out every detail. HD, BAB, saves, AC, actual abilities are the key ones.

NPC wiki.

Online srd

Ton of monster/NPC books/modules/sourcebooks with ready to use stuff.

There is room for variety in stats, so close is good enough. When I wanted to use templated orc wights instead of standard ones I did a simplified template, and used normal base srd orcs.
 

If calculating stats is so cumbersome and fudging it doesn't affect the fun for everyone at the table, why go through all the trouble?

I would assume it was because the person calculating the stats enjoys the process, like painting a miniature or building a model. That, or the satisfaction of the correct math is sufficient to count as a reward for the labor. If full calculation is not that fun or rewarding for a given DM and it doesn't affect the fun for everyone at the table, then there really is no reason to go through all the trouble. Which is, I think, quite a good thing.
 

Here's how I'd do it:


  1. Look on my table of basic stats (HP, saves, BAB, etc.) by level of monster, made a few years ago. One table for smarties (low HP and BAB, high will), one table for regular guys (average everything), one table for brutes (high HP and BAB, poor reflex and will).
  2. Add three to five abilities they can use at will.
  3. Repeat.
Yes, I'm cheating. No, I'm not sorry. :p
 

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