Multiclassing Blood Mage Edit

[Saagael]

I have a Swordmage in my campaign that multiclassed Wizard to get the Blood Mage paragon path. In theory this works really well since he's got a ton of teleport/pull powers. However, I have been pondering changing the paragon path to play a little nicer with multiclassing.

Right now, Bolstering Blood can only be used with wizard or blood mage encounters/dailies. That gives this player (who is at level 11) precisely 1 power per encounter he can use Bolstering Blood with. I'm thinking about changing it so that he can use Bolstering Blood with swordmage powers too. Fluff-wise, it fits (to me at least). I'm wondering if anyone has done this sort of thing, or if anyone has some general advice or thoughts on the subject. The character optimized really at all, so the extra damage doesn't worry me so much. The only thing that's keeping me hesitant is that swordmages have a lot more HP than wizards, so each bolstering blood has less of a penalty when compared to a pure wizard.

A second question about the blood mage: When you teleport a creature 5 squares, is it considered to have left all 5 squares (for purposes of Blood Pulse)? To me it seems like teleports would only have the foe leave a single square, since they're moving directly from one square to another, and not passing through each sequential square. Does that seem a reasonable interpretation?

 

[Nifft]

The issue with Bolstering Blood is that it's supposed to be risky for the Wizard, who has relatively few hit points. The biggest abuse with Blood Mage was previously the Infernal Warlock, who often had enough temporary hit points to use Bolstering Blood every round.

Swordmage has a different issue (Defender HP), but IMHO that's not comparable, since it's not nearly as renewable as the Infernal Warlock's temporary HP supply. So I'd allow him to use it, with the provision that maybe in the future you're going to charge him a little extra (say, +2 hp of damage to him over what he deals) when he uses it in conjunction with a Swordmage power... but I'd only do that if he's trying to pull tricks like the Enlarged Thunder-admixtured Swordburst.

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Blood Pulse is a problematic power. It's phrased in such a way that you could interpret pushing a Large creature 1 square, as forcing it to leave 3 squares. IMHO that's silly. By my reasoning -- which is based more on power balance than textural interpretation -- teleporting a critter = leaving 1 square.

The other issue with Blood Pulse is how you add the bonus damage. (1d6 + Enhancement + Feats) is a chunk of pain, but then you multiply that by squares left, and it gets very silly indeed. I suggest adding the bonus damage only once, even if more dice of damage are accrued later.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Saagael]

Swordmage has a different issue (Defender HP), but IMHO that's not comparable, since it's not nearly as renewable as the Infernal Warlock's temporary HP supply. So I'd allow him to use it, with the provision that maybe in the future you're going to charge him a little extra (say, +2 hp of damage to him over what he deals) when he uses it in conjunction with a Swordmage power... but I'd only do that if he's trying to pull tricks like the Enlarged Thunder-admixtured Swordburst.

I had thought about this. The player isn't so much of an optimizer, and more of a roleplayer, which is generally why I'm for this idea. If it gets crazy, I'll implement a "+3 damage per target after the first" so that targeting 2 creatures will cost him 3 more HP, targeting 3 would cost 6, etc.

Blood Pulse is a problematic power. It's phrased in such a way that you could interpret pushing a Large creature 1 square, as forcing it to leave 3 squares. IMHO that's silly. By my reasoning -- which is based more on power balance than textural interpretation -- teleporting a critter = leaving 1 square.

The other issue with Blood Pulse is how you add the bonus damage. (1d6 + Enhancement + Feats) is a chunk of pain, but then you multiply that by squares left, and it gets very silly indeed. I suggest adding the bonus damage only once, even if more dice of damage are accrued later.

Glad to see you agree with me (makes me feel less like a jerk DM ) I don't remember ever reading that damage bonuses are applied to secondary damage die rolls unless specifically stated. Can you cite sources? Would this also add to a warlock's Dire Radiance/Hellish Rebuke secondary damage?

I've always ruled that when damage dice are stated without "+ Stat Bonus" it's just the dice and no other bonuses.

 

[Starfox]

If it gets crazy, I'll implement a "+3 damage per target after the first" so that targeting 2 creatures will cost him 3 more HP, targeting 3 would cost 6, etc.

The very point of the path is that it is supposed to be used with Wizard spells targeting several creatures, thereby multiplying the damage you take and applying it to several enemies. Your suggested rule here runs counter to that.

Not saying your ruling couldn't work for a blood-sword-mage, but for a wizard I think the damage multiplication is very much RAI.

 

[Saagael]

The very point of the path is that it is supposed to be used with Wizard spells targeting several creatures, thereby multiplying the damage you take and applying it to several enemies. Your suggested rule here runs counter to that.

Not saying your ruling couldn't work for a blood-sword-mage, but for a wizard I think the damage multiplication is very much RAI.

This is only if the player starts to use forms of cheese to maximize attacks for use with the feature. That, and there's less cost to use this feature for a swordmage because they have more health and higher defenses.

 

[BobTheNob]

I would walk carefully. The point about a blood mage whereby they have to give up hit points, and wizard having low hit points, is a well received one. Often paragon classes can "accidently" leverage better against classes they were not built for (e.g. ranger with Pit fighter) due to mechanical quirks. In this case this does not exist because the RAW states clearly wizards only, but what you are proposing would open it up, in this case to a tank being able to use his tank hit points (and tank HS value and healing sourges per day) to far greater effect than a wizard ever would.

At the same time, not all class/paragon options will work well, nor are they generally meant to. The designer have been *very specific* about the conditions under which said ability can be used, and it doesnt seem like an accident at all to me. They intended it for the wizard (maybe for once the saw the cheese on the wall!).

At the end of the day its your game, and I also respect that your player is a bit more casual (and therefore less likely to abuse), but to me there is no ambiguity. If you came here seeking the advice of your peers, then as a peer I will say my position would be to deny the request (and, as per my policy, make it very transparent to the player why).

 

[Nifft]

I had thought about this. The player isn't so much of an optimizer, and more of a roleplayer, which is generally why I'm for this idea. If it gets crazy, I'll implement a "+3 damage per target after the first" so that targeting 2 creatures will cost him 3 more HP, targeting 3 would cost 6, etc.

That's even harsher than my tentative nerf... I'd watch him for a few sessions and see if he's out-damaging the party Strikers before changing anything.

Glad to see you agree with me (makes me feel less like a jerk DM ) I don't remember ever reading that damage bonuses are applied to secondary damage die rolls unless specifically stated. Can you cite sources? Would this also add to a warlock's Dire Radiance/Hellish Rebuke secondary damage?

I've always ruled that when damage dice are stated without "+ Stat Bonus" it's just the dice and no other bonuses.

Hamsters and Ranger are crying at this injustice! (Because of Twin Strike.)

Things which add to damage rolls always add to ... well, damage rolls. So if you have a +1 weapon, and you're using a power with the Weapon keyword, you add +1 to the power's damage rolls. Same thing for feats which add to damage rolls.

You can see that the stat modifier (if any) is added in a separate paragraph from all the other modifiers. They're not causally related.

Cheers, -- N