Please define 'swingy'

[billd91]

However, the PC's feature in every combat. The odds of low chance events eventually reach 1 the longer you play.

<snip>

That's the problem with swinginess. All the planning and tactics in the world can't help you. The dice gods declare you dead and you die. The troll hits you for 50 points of damage in a single round and your 4th level cleric is now rat jam.

If you're really afraid of death happening, why are you adventuring? In a role playing sense, that is. It's a dangerous profession.

 

[FireLance]

The problem with swingy'ness is that it only punishes the PC's in the long run.

I think it depends on whether the monsters and the PCs benefit equally from the swinginess. Even random elements like critical hits can be structured in ways that benefit the PCs more than the monsters - in 4E, PC critical hits are usually more spectacular than the monsters' critical hits, especially at high level, when they get more bonus damage from magical weapons and implements. In addition, some monsters do not benefit from critical hits at all since they deal static damage - minions, for example.

In the case of tactical swinginess, it is simply a matter of putting more of such elements in the PCs' hands compared to the monsters. In 4E, this could include daily powers, action points, magic item daily abilities, etc.

 

[Fanaelialae]

If you're really afraid of death happening, why are you adventuring? In a role playing sense, that is. It's a dangerous profession.

There's certainly a difference between (your character) dying because you did something stupid and dying before you even got to act in the first round of combat due to a lucky crit or two.

Some people like the idea that they could die at virtually any moment (though certainly some moments are likelier candidates than others). For them it adds unpredictability and excitement.

Others prefer death to be a penalty reserved for poor decisions. For them it sucks to lose a cherished persona without having been able to provide any input at all, or despite having made all the smart choices.

 

[Hussar]

If you're really afraid of death happening, why are you adventuring? In a role playing sense, that is. It's a dangerous profession.

I have no problem with character death. This is the strawman that gets chucked out every time this issue comes up.

My problem is guaranteed PC death. Because that's what swingy is. Guaranteed PC death. The longer you play, the greater the odds of the swingy result coming up.

I dislike the idea that no matter what plans we make, no matter how "good" or "skilled" a player is, he is guaranteed to die.

1 in 400 you roll two crits in a row. That will kill pretty much any PC automatically in 3e. There's a reason there were no crits in 1e. There's a reason the DMG in 3e specifically states that increasing random elements only punishes the PC's, not the monsters.

But, yes, it's because I'm just a big softy that doesn't like killing PC's.

 

[FireLance]

If you're really afraid of death happening, why are you adventuring? In a role playing sense, that is. It's a dangerous profession.

There's certainly a difference between (your character) dying because you did something stupid and dying before you even got to act in the first round of combat due to a lucky crit or two.

Some people like the idea that they could die at virtually any moment (though certainly some moments are likelier candidates than others). For them it adds unpredictability and excitement.

Others prefer death to be a penalty reserved for poor decisions. For them it sucks to lose a cherished persona without having been able to provide any input at all, or despite having made all the smart choices.

I have no problem with character death. This is the strawman that gets chucked out every time this issue comes up.

My problem is guaranteed PC death. Because that's what swingy is. Guaranteed PC death. The longer you play, the greater the odds of the swingy result coming up.

I dislike the idea that no matter what plans we make, no matter how "good" or "skilled" a player is, he is guaranteed to die.

1 in 400 you roll two crits in a row. That will kill pretty much any PC automatically in 3e. There's a reason there were no crits in 1e. There's a reason the DMG in 3e specifically states that increasing random elements only punishes the PC's, not the monsters.

But, yes, it's because I'm just a big softy that doesn't like killing PC's.

Could we please fork this to another thread? It doesn't seem germane to the topic at hand and it might derail the discussion here. Thanks.

 

[Hussar]

Eh? How is this not germane? The question is, afaik, answered. What is swinginess? It's the degree to which random effects will dominate a combat. A swingy combat will be dominated by random events while a grind will not be.

To my mind, swingy is problematic because no amount of planning will actually change the swinginess to a large degree, since swinginess is measured by a degree of randomness. At best, you can mitigate swinginess through tactics, by reducing the number of random chances. But, in a swingy system, it doesn't really matter in the long run, because eventually, those rare events will come up and bite the PC's on the petoot.

 

[Vegepygmy]

That's the problem with swinginess. All the planning and tactics in the world can't help you.

Sure they can. Lowering the chances of something bad happening to you is "helping" you. What they can't do is eliminate the chance entirely.

For me, that's a feature, not a bug.

My problem is guaranteed PC death. Because that's what swingy is. Guaranteed PC death.

It's only guaranteed over such an extended period of time that, personally, I don't care. I played a character from 1st to 20th in the (3e) Age of Worms, and never died once until the very end (and when I died then, I took out Kyuss with me, and it was AWESOME).

Had we continued playing into epic levels, sure, I guess eventually some "swingy" effect would have killed me in some unsatisfying way, but I had no interest in epic play, so that "guarantee" didn't bother me. YMMV.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Sure they can. Lowering the chances of something bad happening to you is "helping" you. What they can't do is eliminate the chance entirely.

For me, that's a feature, not a bug.

Amen.

 

[Garthanos]

Hit points / Fate Points / Hero Points are an awesome invention to enable heroic action in a style like that of various fictional sources to not be out right stupid.

Cowardice is king when its always the best option...

 

[billd91]

My problem is guaranteed PC death. Because that's what swingy is. Guaranteed PC death. The longer you play, the greater the odds of the swingy result coming up.

You realize that this argument also applies to non-swingy combat games as well. The longer you play the greater the likelihood that even the improbable occurs. It's just a matter of degree.