Finalized Hybrid Rules - What's new?

[UngeheuerLich]

wow... making yourself this item dependent doesn´t sound like a brilliant idea...

And IMHO hybrid rules should have been balanced for regular play, not for hilarious little combos... once again i fear that CO ruins a good idea...

but: I can easily give the hybrid feat for free, if a player choses a less "optimized" but more flavourful combo

did I say, wow what a bad idea making yourself that item dependant? Especially this combo... mage hand on the dropped weapons and run?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, there are some silly side effects ...

For instance, you could hybrid ranger or fighter with any arcane class ... and go pure strength.
Why?

Take armour proficiency feats for defense.
Some combinations are easier to do, such as HT: Tempest with Fighter | Bard ('cos you already get chainmail), or Ranger | Swordmage.

Level 2 weapon Mage's Weapon ...
1) It's not much more expensive than level 1
2) It's free proficiency. So say hi to Parrying Dagger, or Double Sword, or Bastard Sword.
3) Encounter power of downgrading arcane power to martial power.

So ... level 13 Fighter | Bard with a few Mage's Weapons (use/drop/draw, recover after combat), turning all those arcane encounter powers into Rain of Blows.
Throw in a few Power Jewels, and you can literally Rain of Blows all day.
Add Kensei or Pit Fighter for stupid damage bonuses.

Or the Ranger doing the same thing with Disruptive Strike.
"Attack other people and I'll aegis you, attack me and I'll stab you in the face. Oh, btw, twin strike. I also happen to be a stormwarden with scimitar dance."

Hybrids aren't for "regular" players ... it's for hilarious little combos like that.

Meh, there are already plenty of examples of cheese that start with "get 9 of the level 2 version of item XYZ...". Admittedly its cheesy but is it really all that broken? RoB is a fairly nice power but its a lot less broken than it was back in the days when you could Bloodclaw every round etc.

I don't think your Ranger | Swordmage is going to have squat for DEX.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, the entire point with the martial/arcane mix is to stat dump the arcane class' attack stat.
You can build for str/con, or str/dex, or str/wis ... the stormwarden way is obviously str/dex.

Encounter powers get swapped down, you can take a non-attacking daily like Lashing Asp, and the utility is obviously not a problem.

Come to think of it, str/con is nicer than str/dex, even with aegis of assault.
You're getting 3 swings a turn (twin strike, + disruptive strike or fox's cunning or aegis' interrupt), so lashing asp's bonus damage can really add up.

Heck, you don't even need the mage's weapon if you're of the mind to just Reserve Maneuver away the swordmage encounter power.
Then you can hammer rhythm instead ... oh yeah @ lashing asp + hammer rhythm + twin strike.

@UngeheuerLich
Those weapons are level 2.
520 gp, made in 1 hour (by a ritual caster), and after a certain point entirely "consumable."
They should be recoverable easily enough after battle, but if they're not, not a big deal.
However, remember also that you only have to have 1 arcane encounter power ... so just 1 mage's weapon is enough to deal with it. If you don't want to drop your weapon, that is.

 

[Marshall]

There are always going to be cheesy builds even for the most underpowered of options.
There still isnt a build that doesnt involve a striker(and the more I see its even more specifically TS or Sorcerer) that cant be done BETTER with a non-hybrid.

Combining leader role classes is a joke. You get to heal two different ways, which just means that its overly feat intensive to improve your healing AND you miss out on the 3/enc bump at 16.
Leaders are also the MOST penalized Hybrids when it comes to losing class features. Its almost scary how decimated the leaders are by hybridizing. The funny part is, the later the Hybrid is in the alphabet the less its punished by being Hybrid. Artificer get jack squat(If you go by RAW he gets one heal a DAY); Bard gets +1 to all untrained skills(at least he gets one heal per enc); Cleric gets his one good heal and keeps the stat bonus, Shaman gets almost everything, losing only a weak spirit power; Warlord keeps it all reducing only the action point benefit.

Defender classes are the least effected by Hybridization since the primary role feature, marking, is present in all base builds altho gutted soeven stacking D/D comes up weak sauce.
Divine Sanction is a straw dog. Any MC paladin can do the same thing AND he'll have a full class to back him up.

Controller/Controller? WHY?!? Druid is dead. Comes up right behind Artificer in the "I got screwed" race. They were never much of a controller anyway more of a Hybrid Controller/Striker in one class, and just as bad off for it.
Wizards? Why Hybrid Wizard when a Lvl 4 hand slot item gives you just as much?
Invoker? The only ability these guys have is CD and its one they dont get. They dont lose much for Hybrid, They dont give or gain anything either.

Strikers....Ranger gives Twin Strike. Always a good option.
Sorcerors have all kinds of powers that do all types of damage with an always on damage boost. Cool, you can take advantage of all the vulnerability cheese options. You still gained NOTHING from being hybrid.
Rogue? Stay single class. There isnt anything out there worth losing half your powers.
Avenger? Your shtick is "roll two dice." Half the time you cant use it if you Hybrid. Weak Sauce.
Warlock? Painfully weak defenses or actually get something out of your only power(curse)? Choose wisely. (ie dont hybrid)

 

[Danceofmasks]

Sorcerors have all kinds of powers that do all types of damage with an always on damage boost. Cool, you can take advantage of all the vulnerability cheese options. You still gained NOTHING from being hybrid.

WTF?
Did you see my build?

My sorc / champion of corellon has 34 AC at level 12.
34 AC.

 

[Danceofmasks]

I'm playing a genasi warlord/ swordmage. It's not overpowered, but our group really needs the versatility. Our other defender player has an unpredictable work schedule and can't always be there on game night, so I never know when I'll be called upon to be the tank. We have no other leader classes at all, so I am it for healing too (I've taken a skill-based utility power for a second heal, and fearless rescue as my daily).

This is the kind of situation I think hybrids were designed for, not as a tool kit for optimizers. (Not that there's anything wrong with optimizers...I have waiting in the wings a ranger/rogue whose only standard-action attacks are at-wills; every encounter and daily is minor or immediate).

The fact remains, hybrids are more difficult to build.
That means, by its very nature, they require more optimising.

The arguments vs. hybrids being weak in this thread are of the "yeah, but the average player will suck with 'em" variety .. and frankly, I agree with that sentiment.
'cos when hybrids are concerned, there's more room for error.

Plus, all my hybrid builds tend to have complex "monster behaviour manipulating" combos.
A lot of players don't even know how this sort of thing works, 'cos their experience with combat has heretofore been just, "how to get a couple of bonuses and hit that guy." and "I'm bloodied. Heal me please."

Just a very basic "starting combat" combo is just with a plain fighter.
Shielded sides + come and get it.
1) It changes the board significantly, to the party's advantage.
2) Fighter can't be flanked and gets +2 AC/ref ... that is the equivalent of -20% probability of being hit vs 3+ attacks.
Now, ignoring the obvious advantage of having foes marked by the fighter, this very simple combo will pre-emptively negate hits.
Negating hits is pre-emptive healing.
Clumped up enemies in convenient flanking positions = more damage dealt to them, which means they die faster, which means they attack less.
Monsters attacking less is pre-emptive healing.

That sort of combo is more efficient at winning combats than dishing out a few extra points of damage with a bloodclaw weapon.

 

[Marshall]

WTF?
Did you see my build?

My sorc / champion of corellon has 34 AC at level 12.
34 AC.

No. What build? You talked about it but dont show anything.

 

[Stuntman]

My impression of hybrids (and multiclassing) is that they are aimed at players who want a character with an unusual background or backstory. I think that if this is what is important to you, optimising is probably less important. Hybrids and multiclassing may be less optimal, but it is far from unplayable for most combinations. I think that what the designers are trying to avoid are optimised builds that are mostly hybrids or multiclassed.

Hybrids by their very nature are difficult to balance properly with single classed characters. Some combos will be better than others. The designers could have set the average hybrid's power level to be less, equal to or greater than the average single classed character. If they set the average power level of hybrids to be greater, then perhaps almost all hybrids are playable, but anyone who wants to optimise will play a hybrid. If hybrids are equal then most optimised builds will be hybrids. If hybrids are lower, then perhaps few optimised builds will be hybrids.

I do not believe that you can make a hybrid system in 4E where every single hybrid combo is equally balanced with single classed characters. Perhaps there will be a future edition that you can do it, but not in 4E. I think that ideally hybrids (all combos) should be roughly equal to single classed characters. In reality, if it is not achievable, the choice that the designers made was to err on the side of being a little underpowered. At least, I do not feel it is so underpowered that most hybrid combos cannot make meaningful contributions in a party.

In my experience with hybrids so far, they perform well enough that the party does not feel handicapped. One hybrid is designed to fit a character concept and he performs quite well. Another tried to take advantage of a combo of powers, but that combo doesn't seem to work well in practice. Still, without trying the combo, it still performs quite well.

 

[Danceofmasks]

No. What build? You talked about it but dont show anything.

It's right there, near the top of this page.
Stick it into the character builder, up to level 12, and see what happens.

I'm not one to do the "this is a snapshot at level 8" or whatever, 'cos during actual play, acquired equipment and party composition would result in changes as you go.
I build characters on a spreadsheet, to ensure they work at every level.

You'll need +3 Gith Plate and a heavy shield, but that's it.
+3 masterwork armour, nonmagical shield, champion of corellon, 34 AC.
Add a +3 neck slot item, and a +3 subtle dagger.
Any other items are in the "nice but unnecessary" category.

 

[Marshall]

It's right there, near the top of this page.
Stick it into the character builder, up to level 12, and see what happens.

I'm not one to do the "this is a snapshot at level 8" or whatever, 'cos during actual play, acquired equipment and party composition would result in changes as you go.
I build characters on a spreadsheet, to ensure they work at every level.

You'll need +3 Gith Plate and a heavy shield, but that's it.
+3 masterwork armour, nonmagical shield, champion of corellon, 34 AC.
Add a +3 neck slot item, and a +3 subtle dagger.
Any other items are in the "nice but unnecessary" category.

10 Base
+10 Armor
+3 Min Enh
+2 Shield
+6 1/2 Level
31 AC total

Armor, Shield, Level.
What the heck does Hybrid have to do with this?