Finalized Hybrid Rules - What's new?

[tiornys]

If you want to illustrate your point, prove it. Post a hybrid x/y PC where it is as strong or stronger in combat as class x and as strong or stronger in combat as class y. Go to a reasonable level like level 10 so that the attacks, defenses, hit points, DPR, healing, etc. can be illustrated and measured at various levels.

Have you checked out this thread? 3 of the top 4 level 30 DPR builds are hybrid. 2 of the top 3 level 24 builds are hybrid. The top feycharging build is hybrid. Hybrids are competitive at levels 1, 6, 12 and 16. At most of those levels, a hybrid is on top. I haven't taken a look at any of these builds to see how much their defenses are suffering due to the DPR focus, but I doubt the hybrid builds are significantly worse than the non-hybrids.

t~

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Have you checked out this thread? 3 of the top 4 level 30 DPR builds are hybrid. 2 of the top 3 level 24 builds are hybrid. The top feycharging build is hybrid. Hybrids are competitive at levels 1, 6, 12 and 16. At most of those levels, a hybrid is on top. I haven't taken a look at any of these builds to see how much their defenses are suffering due to the DPR focus, but I doubt the hybrid builds are significantly worse than the non-hybrids.

t~

Thanks T, I was literally just about to post that same link.

Dose of reality there for you KD, just because YOU find hybrids to be "weak" is not relevant when there are hybrid builds EVEN WITH THE RULES AS THEY ARE that can run rampant.

And that Paladin|Warlock you keep putting down? Sorry, try building one. Its 2 minutes with CB and you'll start to understand exactly what I'm talking about. NOTHING underpowered about hybrids in general, its just already well proven to be untrue.

And anyone that wants to go on about the power levels of various builds of characters do yourself a huge favor and at least do a CURSORY scan of the WotC boards on the subject. People have already long since tried out all combos of things there and it really isn't necessary to speculate or just go by what you personally have done. Its fine to post your observations but do the research before attempting to call them the final word on the subject, OK?

 

[fuzzlewump]

My last characters have been a Seeker, a Paladin|Bard, Cleric|Fighter, Paladin|Warlock, Cleric|Warden, Rogue|Sorcerer, and a Warlord.

Seeker is without a buddy because the hybrid rules haven't been released yet for them, sadly. I don't enjoy the Warlord. All of those builds have definitely been competitive, and more importantly I just enjoy the versatility greatly.

 

[interwyrm]

Have you checked out this thread? 3 of the top 4 level 30 DPR builds are hybrid. 2 of the top 3 level 24 builds are hybrid. The top feycharging build is hybrid. Hybrids are competitive at levels 1, 6, 12 and 16. At most of those levels, a hybrid is on top. I haven't taken a look at any of these builds to see how much their defenses are suffering due to the DPR focus, but I doubt the hybrid builds are significantly worse than the non-hybrids.

t~

This is a bit of a strawman. I would agree that hybrids can compete on DPR. Where they have a *lot* of trouble is with acting as a defender or a leader. Paladin hybrid mark is straight up useless.

 

[Marshall]

Yeah. I looked. It proves the point that Hybrids are seriously underpowered, but can be used to compound some overpowered options in other classes.

Did I already know Twin Strike was a good At-will? Yes. That doesnt make a Ranger Hybrid useful.
Did I already know you can abuse the Morninglord PP? Yes. That doesnt make the Paladin Hybrid useful.

Sorry. Where are the examples of Good hybrids using Leaders? Controllers? Non-Radiant Sorcerors? Ranger not using TS?
What, exactly, did Hybrid add to these builds?(The answer is almost nothing)

 

[KarinsDad]

Thanks T, I was literally just about to post that same link.

Dose of reality there for you KD, just because YOU find hybrids to be "weak" is not relevant when there are hybrid builds EVEN WITH THE RULES AS THEY ARE that can run rampant.

What a total strawman.

There are actually very few hybrids on that list at Heroic and Paragon levels where they are actually competitive. It's only in Epic where they finally get enough feats and can use the same old cold cheese where they actually work.

There are something like 153 possible hybrid build combinations of class. 3 or 4 of them on that list. Woo hoo. And many of the DPR builds are very unbalanced (i.e. have sucky defenses, etc.). That's like 2% or 3% of the combination possibilities.

So if 2% or 3% of the list of hybrids illustrates the balance implications of the entire list for you, especially at heroic and paragon level where the majority of the game is played, then we cannot rationally discuss this.

Dose of reality for you there AA.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yeah. I looked. It proves the point that Hybrids are seriously underpowered, but can be used to compound some overpowered options in other classes.

Did I already know Twin Strike was a good At-will? Yes. That doesnt make a Ranger Hybrid useful.
Did I already know you can abuse the Morninglord PP? Yes. That doesnt make the Paladin Hybrid useful.

Sorry. Where are the examples of Good hybrids using Leaders? Controllers? Non-Radiant Sorcerors? Ranger not using TS?
What, exactly, did Hybrid add to these builds?(The answer is almost nothing)

Um... Nothing in the ranger class itself other than Twin-Strike makes Twin-Strike broken. Therefore, Hybridding so you have Twin-Strike + Best At-will of second class is a powerful option by default.

Ranger not using TS? Please do not speak of myths and legends.

 

[tiornys]

This is a bit of a strawman. I would agree that hybrids can compete on DPR. Where they have a *lot* of trouble is with acting as a defender or a leader. Paladin hybrid mark is straight up useless.

Paladin's hybrid Divine Challenge is poor, but their Divine Sanction is unaffected. You can make some very effective defender|defender hybrids. For example, a Fighter|Paladin can use their minor action to set a DC on an adjacent enemy they don't attack, smack another enemy with Ardent Strike, and be able to effectively enforce both marks since they can use Combat Challenge on the DC'ed enemy and let the Sanction do its work normally. Heck, if the DC'ed enemy obeys the mark, he can even double punish the Sanctioned one if necessary.

Basically, this build can have all the advantages of the Paladin's Divine Sanction enforcement plus the Fighter's Combat Challenge enforcement. They get to multi-mark much easier than a non-Tempest fighter (and being non-Tempest can have superior armor), and they get to have much stronger mark enforcement than a Paladin vs. a single tough enemy. They'll have to choose between Weapon Talent and Combat Superiority and spend a feat to pick it up, but they don't even need to spend that feat to be very effective as a defender.

I'd defend the Leader|Leader builds (although there's less synergy there than with Defenders), but I'm out of time.

t~

 

[Stuntman]

First of all, hybrid characters (particularly those of mixed roles) are not supposed to fulfill a role fully like a single classed character. A fighter-wizard will not be able to defend as well as a fighter for as long as a fighter because it is not designed to do so. He can defend, but may need to pull out from defending sooner than a single classed defender.

Hybrids are supposed to give you some flexibility. If you happen to need to be a controller more than a defender the fighter-wizard will be better than the single classed fighter in that instance. This is the advantage hybrids give you.

Second, different hybrid combos vary in power level. Some combos will be very good, others not so good. I think that you need to ensure that the best combos are not too powerful rather than bring the power of the worse combos up. You not only have to do this for existing classes, but also for any future classes. Making exceptions on a case by case basis is impractical.

My experience with the two hybrid characters in my gaming group seem to indicate that the flexibility can be very useful. The flow of battle can change and that extra flexibility can be quite useful at times. Also, the two characters I have seen seem to have a different level of effectiveness. Still even the less effective hybrid character is still effective enough of a character. Sure it's not highly optimised, but I don't see that as an issue with my group of mostly non-optimisers.

One thing I find about the value of hybrids and multiclassing is the coolness factor. I think it is cool to have a character that is a mix of two classes. It may not be as effective as a single classed character, but sometimes players want this coolness factor at the expense of optimisation. This is the case for single classed characters as well. As long as the character is at an adequate power level even if it is not near the best, it is OK.

As for the effectiveness of the most optimised hybrids compared to the most optimised single classed characters, I do feel that optimised hybrids for most hybrid combinations are not as effective as most optimised single classed characters. There are a few that are very good. I think from an optimisation point of view, you could shift the power of hybrids higher or lower. It seems that how high or low you set the power of hybrids is the issue. From my personal experience with my particular group, I feel the power level works where it currently is.

With hybrids, I feel that they have to give up some class features that single classed characters have. I personally like the fact that Hybrid Talent cannot be taken more than once (except with the paragon tier hybrid option). One of the reasons is this coolness factor. For instance, single classed characters get a number of class features that are not available or not available fully to hybrids due to the limited built in class features and hybrid talent. For instance, hybrid wizards cannot gain the spellbook feature. This is a cool thing that is only availble to single classed wizards. If you want this feature because you like it, then you have to choose to play a single classed wizard and not a hybrid wizard. I do agree that being able to take hybrid talent to gain more class features may not be broken all the time. Some hybrid talent options aren't that good. However, I do think that not allowing HT to be taken multiple times give single classed characters some coolness factor that is not available to hybrid characters.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

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This is another good discussion where some pretty interesting ideas have cropped up.

There seems to be a pretty solid pattern emerging with hybrids. Ranger predictably can get pretty crazy combined with a lot of other classes since you basically need either dex or str and just rely on Twin Strike, that's been clear from the start.

LOTS of single role hybrids look quite effective. Lots of single power source hybrids look quite effective. Lots of leader matched with a martial class or barbarian hybrids look pretty good. There really are a LOT of combinations that look perfectly viable. There are a range of combinations that are more than just viable and rival some of the better single classes.

There is no doubt that plenty of combinations just don't look like they would work especially well but even most of these are no worse than a lot of characters I see around in actual play that are perfectly playable.

Is everyone's favorite combination going just rock? Nope. The problem is again I think its worth looking at it from the designer's perspective. They can't simply crank up the power level of hybrids until all but the dregs are really good choices without creating some monsters. They really can't do that in good conscience. They obviously did do a pretty decent amount of playtesting and the hybrid rules have been mostly around long enough now that the system has been worked out pretty well. Its a solid system and probably just about as good as it can get.