Finalized Hybrid Rules - What's new?

[AbdulAlhazred]

KD, Rechan, have you ACTUALLY PLAYED A HYBRID???!!!

Of course some possible hybrids are terrible. Some are even terrible if you take the HT feat. Some would even be terrible if you get HT for free and could take it again!

HT can be very strong. Anyone who can't see that I question if they comprehend the rules. HT armor with a paladin gives you ALL armor proficiencies for one feat, how is that not FAR stronger than a normal feat? Even for a fighter they need STR 15/CON 15 to wear plate armor but with HT paladin you get it with no prereq for one feat. This isn't a "feat tax" its a GIFT.

Honestly if you build some hybrid PCs you'll see that there are actually quite a few builds that may want to skip the HT feat. Its likely to be a good feat to consider for ANY hybrid, but not at all an automatic choice across the board. It really depends on what you're going for. A pure CHA based paladin/warlock for example could easily skip HT totally. He could care less about the armor and while a pact boon would probably be nice he might just say "eh, I'll take implement expertise instead" and that would be quite reasonable. Maybe later he WILL pick up HT to bring his armor up or a pact boon, etc, but its just not that urgent for that build. He's no worse off than a normal warlock for defenses to start with. I can even see some hybrids that may never take HT at all. A wizard|invoker that specializes in summons for example may well not even care about HT.

You really cannot criticize the system without trying it. 4e classes are very hard to evaluate unless you've at the very least sat down and built an example and looked at it carefully.

Overall I think HT is strong and I don't think they should give it multiple times. Its purpose is to give you that one extra feature that brings your features up to 100% par with single classes. The reason it costs a feat is that just being a hybrid in and of itself is worth more than a feat. Consider implement use, hybrids have a flexibility of implement use that CANNOT be replicated any other way. That isn't worth a feat? Of course it is. Just having the powers of two classes to combine (and some like ranger and paladin are REALLY nice to combine with others) is often worth a feat. No way you should be able to stack on multiple HT and have 100% of the advantages of 2 classes.

Just play it and see. You'll realize how well it works overall and that most complaints don't hold up in practice.

 

[Stalker0]

I will say that allowing hybrid talent multiple times is too good, at least in the blanket statement of "every feat you can take a hybrid talent".

Hybrid Talents are stronger than normal feats. So while the first talent may not be that bad, and maybe even the 2nd one, if you keep piling them on you inevitably create a character stronger than a single class.

At one time I played a bard, then decided to make him a hybrid warlock/bard, and in terms of raw power I was definitely stronger than a normal bard. Striker damage on top of my leader healing (which was weaker but still pretty good) was a great combo.

That said, there are some hybrid concepts that are weaker than a single class, and perhaps some additional rules should be put into place to help compensate these concepts. However, as a blanket statement the hybrid rules do not always create concepts that are stronger or weaker than a single class concept...it depends on the concept you are choosing.

 

[KarinsDad]

KD, Rechan, have you ACTUALLY PLAYED A HYBRID???!!!

Of course some possible hybrids are terrible. Some are even terrible if you take the HT feat. Some would even be terrible if you get HT for free and could take it again!

HT can be very strong. Anyone who can't see that I question if they comprehend the rules.

First off, yes I am currently playing a Hybrid Barbarian Wizard in a game. Are you running a Hybrid currently?

Second, just because you disagree with people does not mean that they do not comprehend the rules. What a lame thing to write. Hybrid Talent is not very strong compared to multiple class features and Hybrid PCs give up more class features than they gain.

Third, each PC gets 18 feats over the lifetime of the PC. Not having to use one of them for a feat tax for Hybrid is totally reasonable. The issue is lack of feats at low level. The number of class features that Hybrids get pales to the number of class features that non-Hybrids get.

HT armor with a paladin gives you ALL armor proficiencies for one feat, how is that not FAR stronger than a normal feat? Even for a fighter they need STR 15/CON 15 to wear plate armor but with HT paladin you get it with no prereq for one feat. This isn't a "feat tax" its a GIFT.

Nonsense. Your Paladin / Whatever has plate armor. Big deal. What did he give up to gain this?

Well, from a normal Paladin, he gave up Lay on Hands, he gives up his Class Divinity, he gives up +1 to 2 out of 3 defenses, his Divine Challenge is a lot weaker, and he already had Plate.

As an example, Paladin/Cleric. He gave up the Paladin stuff and a feat and hit points and healing surges, and gained Healer's Lore, a single Healing Word per encounter, and +1 Will. And he added some MAD to the PC. Hmmm. How exactly is he that much stronger than a normal Paladin? Sure, with the proper powers and feats, he can heal better than before, but he cannot fight better than before. He basically gives up fighting effeciency to gain healing. Or conversely, a Cleric turned into a Paladin/Cleric gives up healing in order to fight more efficiently.


Are there some stronger Hybrid combinations? Sure.

Are they so strong that giving Hybrid Talent as a class feature instead of a feat would make them broken? No. Not even close. In fact, it would make some of the weaker Hybrids (of which there are a ton) slighty more worthwhile.

So, I think your opinion here that handing the Hybrid Talent out for free is unbalanced ignores the real game balance here. We are talking a single feat (tax) here.


If you are so convinced that you are right, post a first level Hybrid where giving him the Hybrid Talent for free would break the PC.

 

[Turtlejay]

This has been mentioned before, but the one exception I approve of relating to the Hybrid Talent Feat is allowing one to take it twice, but one of those uses must be for armor/defense.

It can be OP, like in Abdulalhazred's Paladin|Warlock example. Granting Plate prof to that PC is a very nice feat, but in most cases this just brings the PC up to the same level as his fellows.

Jay

 

[Rechan]

KD, Rechan, have you ACTUALLY PLAYED A HYBRID???!!!

I run a game with a hybrid Cleric|Invoker, and he's weak compared to the others, and gains very little from HT. In fact the only thing he would get out of the deal is Channel Divinity.

and Hybrid PCs give up more class features than they gain.

The number of class features that Hybrids get pales to the number of class features that non-Hybrids get.

This is my issue as well.

Hybrids are gimped out of the gate. The very thing that lets them function in their role is weakened (Hence: Paladin's Mark, or a rogue's inability to sneak attack with BASIC ATTACKS, a Leader only getting one heal an encounter).

HT lets them get some of that utility back. And it's somehow Too Strong to let them? Simply because a few combos are Too Good?

Here's my solution: Instead of penalizing HT to avoid a few broken combos, don't allow the broken combos. For instance:

A character can have only ONE class feature which grants a boost to AC. If you want a rules verbiage, just say that the AC bonus is the same TYPE of bonus (a Class Feature bonus) and thus, they don't stack.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

No, we need a second feat: hybrid armor specialization.

And most probably, it wold have been cleaner to have hybrid talent as features at lvl 1 and at 11 when you take paragon hybrid...

 

[Danceofmasks]

Here's my solution: Instead of penalizing HT to avoid a few broken combos, don't allow the broken combos. For instance:

Gotta remember the cost.
And some things are just fun to do.

For instance, I'll happily play a "summoner" druid as a druid | (some defender that pumps AC with HT).
I got no strength, so I effectively lose druid class features, 2 at-wills, an encounter, and a daily.
That means 1 less summon.

Is it still worth having summons with more hp and much higher defenses?
Maybe.
The character also has nice defenses.
Either way, turtle druid is hilariously fun.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

First of all in terms of AC a lot of you are forgetting that even without HT Defense you get the more restricted class's armor proficiencies. In some cases this means you get crud but in a lot of cases it doesn't mean that at all. A hybrid cleric|paladin can already wear chain. This is perfectly good for many builds and you can always take AP Scale if you want and use your HT feat for something else. Its not a gimped MAD class either, that's ridiculous. Either its a STR cleric/paladin (perfect synergy) or its a WIS cleric with either STR or CHA as its split stat, which is still excellent synergy since WIS is a rider for any number of paladin effects and both stats are useful for clerics as well. Nothing exceptionally MAD about that.

You're all missing the HUGE point though, which is that you get to combine powers of two classes without any of the fiddly implement nonsense that otherwise ensues and without burning any PS feats. If you add up the class features you get they stack up reasonably well. In general they are VERY slightly less than with a single class and in some cases not less at all. The thing is they are often MUCH more useful than in the context of the single classes, like the case of the Paladin|Warlock.

Basically what you are all complaining about is that you don't get to be ALL of one of your classes. Well, too bad, be single classed if that's your issue. The whole point of playing a hybrid is to get access to a combination of features not available to a single class. Those features are OFTEN very synergistic and powerful when combined properly. Of course hybrids aren't (generally) stronger than single classes, duh! HT is simply NOT a feat tax, its a gift. Its a gift that makes up the hybrid to the full power of a normal PC and it does that quite nicely.

Giving away a feat on top of that would be absurd. If someone wants to play a horribly bad hybrid combo then of course they're 'gimped' by the system. Nobody says they aren't. If a DM decided to toss that player a bone and give them something for free like an extra feat I have no problem with that. The issue is that if you were to tweak hybrids so that the WORST combinations were on a par with other classes then the best ones would be seriously OP.

I guess I'll just never understand how people that have played RPGs for years and years cannot think like game designers. No designer in his right mind who cares one bit about balance would have made hybrids in general any stronger than they are.

 

[Marshall]

You are seriously overestimating the effectiveness of hybrid class combos. PAL/WLK? Why the heck would you want a ranged striker to mark? Is it really a plus to give up Warlocks defenses to get a Paladins AC?

Sorry, there just arent any overpowered hybrid combos. The ones that are good arent going to be boosted by a free HT. Whereas, the ones that are weak may be helped by it.

 

[KarinsDad]

First of all in terms of AC a lot of you are forgetting that even without HT Defense you get the more restricted class's armor proficiencies. In some cases this means you get crud but in a lot of cases it doesn't mean that at all. A hybrid cleric|paladin can already wear chain. This is perfectly good for many builds and you can always take AP Scale if you want and use your HT feat for something else. Its not a gimped MAD class either, that's ridiculous. Either its a STR cleric/paladin (perfect synergy) or its a WIS cleric with either STR or CHA as its split stat, which is still excellent synergy since WIS is a rider for any number of paladin effects and both stats are useful for clerics as well. Nothing exceptionally MAD about that.

You're all missing the HUGE point though, which is that you get to combine powers of two classes without any of the fiddly implement nonsense that otherwise ensues and without burning any PS feats. If you add up the class features you get they stack up reasonably well. In general they are VERY slightly less than with a single class and in some cases not less at all. The thing is they are often MUCH more useful than in the context of the single classes, like the case of the Paladin|Warlock.

Basically what you are all complaining about is that you don't get to be ALL of one of your classes. Well, too bad, be single classed if that's your issue. The whole point of playing a hybrid is to get access to a combination of features not available to a single class. Those features are OFTEN very synergistic and powerful when combined properly. Of course hybrids aren't (generally) stronger than single classes, duh! HT is simply NOT a feat tax, its a gift. Its a gift that makes up the hybrid to the full power of a normal PC and it does that quite nicely.

Giving away a feat on top of that would be absurd. If someone wants to play a horribly bad hybrid combo then of course they're 'gimped' by the system. Nobody says they aren't. If a DM decided to toss that player a bone and give them something for free like an extra feat I have no problem with that. The issue is that if you were to tweak hybrids so that the WORST combinations were on a par with other classes then the best ones would be seriously OP.

I guess I'll just never understand how people that have played RPGs for years and years cannot think like game designers. No designer in his right mind who cares one bit about balance would have made hybrids in general any stronger than they are.

There you go insulting people by saying how they cannot think like game designers, but you can. How they are missing stuff and forgetting stuff. Hmmm.

So far, the people who have played hybrids have posted that they are relatively weaker than normal PCs. A hybrid has fewer/weaker class features and has one feat less (for all intents and purposes). In exchange, the hybrid gets versatility, but no more versatility than a new class can get in a new splat book. Balance-wise, hybrids are inferior.

If you want to illustrate your point, prove it. Post a hybrid x/y PC where it is as strong or stronger in combat as class x and as strong or stronger in combat as class y. Go to a reasonable level like level 10 so that the attacks, defenses, hit points, DPR, healing, etc. can be illustrated and measured at various levels.

You seem to armchair quarterback quite a bit. You need to illustrate a bit more if your POV is going to be taken seriously.

We are, after all, only talking about a single feat here. If hybrids are typically weaker than non-hybrids (as most people designing them and/or playing them have seemed to notice), than a single feat should help balance it out a bit. But, you have to illustrate that hybrids can actually be stronger than non-hybrids for a single feat being too strong to give them having any validity.

Where's your data that seems to fly in the face of other people's analysis' and experiences? Most people who look at this notice that Hybrid Talent has to be used just for AC, let alone for anything else. You seem to ignore this. You seem to ignore that Cloth armor or Chain armor is actually pretty darn weak for many hybrids and that because the Hybrid PC uses Hybrid Talent for AC just to be competitive, other class features are mostly out of the question.

The Fighter / Wizard in cloth armor sucks dude. And even if he takes Arcane Implement Mastery, he will have a tough time fighting in melee as a Fighter and using that part of his versatility without taking a boatload of other feats. Gimp 101.