Sneak attacks with spells

[Kaledor]

A question that has come up in my group. We're looking at the sorcerer/rogue either multiclass or hybrid-class version. Leaving asside whether this is a good combo or not, the question is:

Can a sorcerer, casting a spell with his dagger implement, gain the sneak attack bonus damage? The power only states you need to have combat advantage against an enemy and hit that enemy with an attack that uses (among other things) a dagger.


Would the sorcerer's spell qualify for bonus sneak attack damage?



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Follow-up, does anybody know of any other way to get a sneak attack with spells?

There's a feat (Sorcerous Blade Channeling) that allows sorcerers to cast spells through their daggers as a melee attack, I figure that would qualify.

 

[Tale]

Sorcerous Blade Channeling only works if you also accept it works as ranged. The point of contention isn't whether it's melee or ranged, but whether implement powers qualify.

I've been away a while, but I haven't heard anything definitive to answer this. However, unless the player is somehow constantly getting bonus damage from the features of two different classes, I'd say it's not a big deal. After all, he's still a Striker.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

no sneak attack on sorcerer powers when you are hybrid... on a multiclassed char i would say probably yes.

 

[Amaroq]

Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and are using a weapon from the light blade, the crossbow, or the sling weapon group, an attack you make against that enemy deals extra damage if the attack hits. You decide whether to apply the extra damage after making the damage roll.

When you wield a magic dagger or a magic staff, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of sorcerer powers and sorcerer paragon path powers that have the implement keyword. Without an implement, you can still use these powers.

Any dagger can function as a sorcerer implement. However, you don’t gain a dagger’s proficiency bonus when using the dagger as an implement.

My reading from that would indicate "No" in either case (hybrid and multiclass), as the Sneak Attack power says "using a weapon", and the warlock power is pretty clear that the dagger is being used as an implement, not as a weapon.

I think that interpretation may be more tactically interesting for the player, as it gives them questions like .. "Gee, do I want to do my higher to-hit-chance arcane Encounter power for 2-dice, and still have my sneak attack for Opportunity Attacks ... or do I want my lower to-hit-chance rogue At-Will for 1 die plus 2 dice of sneak attack?"

Still, you could certainly discuss it with your DM as I imagine individual interpretations will vary.

 

[Amaroq]

Gosh wouldn't it be nice if WotC had written that as "for attacks with the Weapon keyword" instead of "using a weapon"? Seriously, precision-of-language, people!

 

[Droogie128]

The sorcerer dragon article actually encourages the use of sneak attack with a dagger implement.

 

[eriktheguy]

The sorcerer dragon article actually encourages the use of sneak attack with a dagger implement.

I guess you can argue if its legal in either direction. The 'NO's have the rules on their sides, the 'YES's have dragon magazine on their side.

The real question is, is it balanced?

I wouldn't know without some playtesting. Not many builds get regular access to sorcerer spells AND regular access to sneak attack. Hybrids do not work for the obvious reason, sneak attack only applies to rogue powers in hybrids. Multiclassing or half-elf only gives access to a few sorc attacks per encounter.

I think paragon multi-classing gives you access to sorc at-wills, but paragon multiclassing sucks, so I would barely consider that option.

So I would say its balanced, probably not nearly as good as most optimized builds, and I would allow it for anyone in my party crafty enough to make a PC that can pull it off.

 

[Destil]

Gosh wouldn't it be nice if WotC had written that as "for attacks with the Weapon keyword" instead of "using a weapon"? Seriously, precision-of-language, people!

When 4E was new weapons as implements were assumed to work very differently than they're assumed to work now...

It's a day one issue, though, due to the pact dagger. It's just that until the Sorcerer there wasn't a combination where it would be good.

 

[DracoSuave]

Gosh wouldn't it be nice if WotC had written that as "for attacks with the Weapon keyword" instead of "using a weapon"? Seriously, precision-of-language, people!

A sorcerer uses a dagger to cast spells.

A dagger is a weapon from the light blade group.

A sorcerer is therefore using a weapon from the light blade group to cast spells.

As weapons can be used in implement powers, there is no contradiction.

This is why they ARE specific on certain things, like Foo Expertise and such.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

WotC has been pretty much totally consistent on this. When you use a weapon as an implement it still counts as a weapon. Any benefit you would get from attacking with that weapon, you will still get if you attack with it using an implement power. The only exception is the proficiency bonus and they had to EXPLICITLY state that everywhere its relevant, which tells us right off the bat that this was always the intent.

Most feats that increase weapon damage/to-hit have wording which prevents them from working with implement powers, but not all by any means. SA definitely works.

The principle is simple, if its a weapon, then you gain weapon related bonuses, activate class features, etc. unless the specific wording of the power/feature/feat specifies something like a required weapon keyword, melee attack, or something similar.

Sorcerer/Rogue/Daggermaster is a well worn path to highly optimized strikerdom.