I've experienced D&D4

[MrGrenadine]

He said, "It ain't D&D". Now the mystery element is gone so we don't need to visit his blog.

It's the same, boring review we've all seen before, nothing new added or insight. This would have been note worthy a year ago.

It'd be the same as if you posted a 4e positive review from last year and acted like it was news.

Easy now--Bullgrit didn't insult you personally. He just said he thinks the game has deviated too far from previous iterations. Its ok.

I found it interesting to read about his experience and thoughts about it. The fact that YOU would have found it noteworthy a year ago doesn't really have anything to do with the fact that Bullgrit just tried it for the first time recently.

So, you know, if there's nothing here that interests you...move along, move along, nothing to see here.

 

[interwyrm]

I don't understand the problem with the "it ain't d&d" sentiment. I'm kind of inclined to agree. It is *very* different from my first experiences (red box basic set). That's fact, not a value judgment.

I still think it's a great game, and in my opinion more satisfying than the original.

What I do miss is the language. Tables with NPC characteristics like "scrupulous" or "aesthetic sensibility". Level titles like "cavalier" or "cutthroat". I credit D&D with a large part of my vocabulary. (TY & RIP EGG)

 

[catsclaw227]

First, Happy B-Day to Cowgrit.

While I disagree with your opinion and my experience has been more positive than yours, I appreciate the discretion you used to frame your post. I hope you have a more positive experience with the next few sessions and if possible try to pull yourself away from the battlegrid aspects and try to find out ways your warlord can shine while Roleplaying. A warlord can be a really fun leader if roleplay and characterization are given some focus.

Lets not give Bullgrit too hard of a time. I don't agree with his opinion, and tend to think that the sort of opinion he's expressing has more to do with the person than with the game (which is ok!), but I've read enough of his posts to know this much- he's not a liar or a troll. Vitriol should be reserved for the multitude who are not sincere in their criticism. I believe he believes what he says, and respect that.

And I agree with Cadfan. (you must spread more experience around....... blah, blah blah) I never considered your posts trolls or filled with vitriol. You didn't like the game, no biggie. I hope you are gaming with people and systems that make you excited about playing.

If you get a chance to give it some more time, I look forward to reading about your experience.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Until you have been stuck with affect normal fires as your offensive spell quit yer bellyaching and count yourself lucky mister.

Lol, that's one of my favorite spells. I blew up an entire camp of orcs with that once.

 

[Umbran]

It's just that 4e tends to bring out the "well try it again" statements.

Oh, goodness, no. It isn't in any way particular to 4e. I get it all the time about anime, for example. If I haven't seen the person's favorite piece of anime, well, my problem is that I haven't seen really good anime. Or maybe I haven't had really good uni. Or heard really good death-metal. Or had really good...

You get this in any fandom - the basic assumption that since the speaker likes it, everyone will like it if they just experience it properly. Never mind that if I can only find enjoyment in the very best the type has to offer, that's going to keep my favorable experience rather narrow.

Now, with games my personal experience has been that this approach is... more correct than you might think - there are few games that cannot be fun with the right group of people (and conversely, there's no game that cannot be ruined by the wrong people). And, let's face it, we should expect that with an entire group of folks unfamiliar with the system, the experience should be sub-standard. Yes, the experience should improve with practice.

However, an experienced gamer, who has worked with a number of different systems can make some judgments about how much time it'll take to become proficient with the new rules, how much work it'd take for his buddies to have fun with the game. From there, it is simple cost/benefit analysis - is it worth the work and time? That's not a judgment anyone else can make for you.

 

[Dragonblade]

I sympathize with Bullgrit but I'm of the opposite persuasion. I avoid posting in the 3e/Pathfinder forums because really I have nothing positive to say about what I now consider the absolute worst incarnation of D&D ever. I just don't like to dog on someone else's choice of systems. I only bring it up now because its relevant to this discussion.

When 3e first came out, I thought it was brilliant. Like trading in my broken down 2e beater for a sleek sexy and sporty new car. But after playing it for 8 years, I slowly became disillusioned. Mechanical systems that I thought were great at first, like monsters following the same rules as PCs, began to lose their luster in actual play.

Over the 8 years of 3e's life, my love became like, then slowly became frustration and exasperation. House rules bandaged over some of the flaws, and by the time 4e came out I pretty much viewed 3e with utter disgust. Like a vampire, it literally sucked the joy of the game out of me. I used to live, eat and breathe D&D when I played 1st and 2nd edition. But with 3e, D&D stopped being fun and started being work. And games are supposed to be fun. For some its a funny internet meme, but 3e really did kill my inner child. And I still haven't fully recovered.

I agree with Bullgrit that 4e is a different game than all the prior editions of D&D. It is different. And thank heaven that it is. In my opinion, its a far better game because of it.

But I feel for those of you who feel that 4e is no longer the game they recognize as D&D. I feel for you, because thats how I felt until 4e came out.

But unlike before, we now have a plethora of published options to suit all D&D tastes (queue Three Amigos jokes! ). 4e, True20, Fantasycraft, Pathfinder, or OSRIC, and more. I think its fantastic they we can all now freely play the supported ruleset that appeals to us instead of being forced to play one or the other because its the only game in town.

 

[Jasperak]

Lots of HP: Think of it this way: a PC can take about 3-4 hits before he gets Bloodied, and then 3-4 hits before falling. He has the ability to recover from 2-3 hits once per round, and a leader can let them recover more. And monsters take an average of 5 hits before falling (unless it's a minion, then he takes 1 and drop). That's not far from the traditional HP, and tends not to change over a character's career.

What? In earlier editions, at 1st-level it only takes one or two hits to take down a level-equivalent opponent and maybe up to four to take down a fighter with maxed-out hit points. Bullgrit made a comment about how different his first 4e experience was from any other edition of D&D and your comment reinforces it.

And to the poster that mentioned preconceptions, if the PCs and monsters start with two to three times as many hit points as in previous editions and weapon/power damage doesn't escalate accordingly and every PC can heal himself a quarter of his original hit points half-a-dozen or more times a day, it isn't a preconceived notion that combat is going to feel fundamentally different when one plays their first session. It is a logical conclusion from reading the rules.

 

[Gothmog]

I sympathize with Bullgrit but I'm of the opposite persuasion. I avoid posting in the 3e/Pathfinder forums because really I have nothing positive to say about what I now consider the absolute worst incarnation of D&D ever. I just don't like to dog on someone else's choice of systems. I only bring it up now because its relevant to this discussion.

When 3e first came out, I thought it was brilliant. Like trading in my broken down 2e beater for a sleek sexy and sporty new car. But after playing it for 8 years, I slowly became disillusioned. Mechanical systems that I thought were great at first, like monsters following the same rules as PCs, began to lose their luster in actual play.

Over the 8 years of 3e's life, my love became like, then slowly became frustration and exasperation. House rules bandaged over some of the flaws, and by the time 4e came out I pretty much viewed 3e with utter disgust. Like a vampire, it literally sucked the joy of the game out of me. I used to live, eat and breathe D&D when I played 1st and 2nd edition. But with 3e, D&D stopped being fun and started being work. And games are supposed to be fun. For some its a funny internet meme, but 3e really did kill my inner child. And I still haven't fully recovered.

I agree with Bullgrit that 4e is a different game than all the prior editions of D&D. It is different. And thank heaven that it is. In my opinion, its a far better game because of it.

But I feel for those of you who feel that 4e is no longer the game they recognize as D&D. I feel for you, because thats how I felt until 4e came out.

But unlike before, we now have a plethora of published options to suit all D&D tastes (queue Three Amigos jokes! ). 4e, True20, Fantasycraft, Pathfinder, or OSRIC, and more. I think its fantastic they we can all now freely play the supported ruleset that appeals to us instead of being forced to play one or the other because its the only game in town.

Wow Dragonblade, you sum up my exact sentiments as well. I think there is a lot of baggage in some people's minds that comes with the label of "D&D". I honestly don't care if the mechanics of the game are the same as they always used to be- that is actually pretty incidental as far as I'm concerned with something feeling like a "D&D experience". To me, its all about the atmoshpere and play experience a DM and his players can evoke during the game, and in that regard, 4e feels more like D&D to me than any previous version of D&D so far since the red box D&D set. IMO, its because the rules of 4e get out of the way and remain more in the background, and allow for more freeform and creative storytelling without worrying about builds or looking up rules minutiae that really don't add anything to the game (and in fact, often detract from the game).

And as for the "you need to try it again" statements, its not confined to 4e by any means. As Umbran mentioned, I hear it all the time in reference to anime (which I still loathe), and I've heard it about about romantic comedies, sushi, watching golf on tv, NASCAR racing, and a host of other topics. In reference to games, I've heard the exact same arguements made regarding 3e, Exalted, HERO system, WoD and NWoD- and likely ANY game system the person making the arguement enjoys and is passionate about.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

A nice attempt to avoid trolling (and anti-trolling, and preemptive anti-troll surface to thread missiles).

Finish up the adventure at least, I hope you achieve at least a 'not the game for me, but at least I had fun' level of enjoyment. Don't try to pretend that it is D&D - ignore the name, and try to enjoy the game for what it is, drink the beer and eat the pretzels, killing monsters and saving the day.

Samursus mentioned players having a 'Golden Age' where they enjoyed the game best. For me 3.X was that Golden Age, in spite of playing since 1976 - more to do with the vast amount of third party support than any other reason. Some dynamite supplements came out under the OGL, turning the game into a vast smorgasbord of world building options. In a way I am a bigger fan of D20 and the OGL than ever I was a fan of D&D.

So whether you call it D&D, D20, Fantasy Craft (my current favorite D20 offshoot), or Pathfinder (my second favorite), enjoy the game for what it is. If it is not the game for you then at least you can say that you gave it a fair shake.

The Auld Grump

 

[Mournblade94]

You were impatient young apprentice. With time and dedication you could kill Thor with that.

Was this a common anecdote. Back in the 80's when I was really young, the guys I played with down my block said they killed Thor with a push spell.

Was this written somewhere. I am getting the feeling it was. I bet those kids just made it up. All this time I have been trying to figure out how they did it.