Hero System Vs. Mutants & Masterminds. Which is the better super-hero game?

[SteveC]

I just wanted to say that I find it more than a little odd that the focus of the discussion has become "is M&M a level based game?" Is there something wrong with that (either way) that I've somehow missed? Does it make any difference in how M&M deals with the super hero genre?

The only way I can see this level discussion as having any real relevance is based on the Power Level Limits. M&M has a hard cap on attacks/saves/defenses based on the games power level, while Hero does not (it has a range of active points/damage class caps).

As someone who's played both games quite a bit, these caps do have an important meaning in M&M, and it's not always one I've liked. If an attack does greater than average damage, it's going to be less likely to hit. If a character is harder to hit, he's going to be correspondingly easier to hurt. That symmetry based on Power Level is something that's a strong feature of M&M, and also something I'd wish was less locked into the game.

On the other hand, I wish Hero had _more_ of it built in, so you'd have a better balance between a brick character doing more damage, but perhaps being less likely to hit. I guess I'm doomed to never be perfectly satisfied, but such is life.

Still...is M&M a level based game? Uh, who cares?

 

[Elric]

As someone who's played both games quite a bit, these caps do have an important meaning in M&M, and it's not always one I've liked. If an attack does greater than average damage, it's going to be less likely to hit. If a character is harder to hit, he's going to be correspondingly easier to hurt. That symmetry based on Power Level is something that's a strong feature of M&M, and also something I'd wish was less locked into the game.

Allowing PCs to have +1 offensive/defensive PL and -1 in the other would help differentiate characters a little more. All-Out Attack and Defensive Attack do this to an extent, but a character like Cyclops isn't purposefully leaving himself open all the time; he just has stronger offense than defense. At +-1, this certainly wouldn't be unbalancing if you don't let the character pair it with All-Out Attack/Defensive Attack to accentuate the character's strengths.

This way Cyclops might have +10 Attack, 12 damage (PL 11 offensive abilities), and +11 Defense/+7 Toughness (PL 9 defensive abilities). If you went to +2 PLs on offense and -2 on defense he could get to, say, +12 Attack, 12 damage, +10 Defense, +6 Toughness- but that's as far as I'd consider allowing (since any further and you're accomplishing more than you could with AOA or DA).

Note that there's no requirement that an NPC be the same PL on offense and defense, so this issue never arises.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

On the other hand, I wish Hero had _more_ of it built in, so you'd have a better balance between a brick character doing more damage, but perhaps being less likely to hit.

I think that depends upon the way people design their PCs. Most starting PC bricks, IME, have low to average OCVs (and DCVs)...sometimes half of what true combat masters/martial artists have.

I was running a martial arts HERO campaign (w/normal human stat limits) that featured an interesting illustration of this. In the great tournament, we had a Kogo, a big, superhumanly strong (25 Str) thug square off against an old, blind martial arts master, Wing.

Master Wing's high OCV and DCV enabled him to land blows virtually at will while evading Kogo's powerful but clumsy strikes. His saffron robes and long white hair were untouched by the stumbling brute. His staff kept Kogo's broken glass & tape wrapped knuckles at bay.






Well, until the one hit that ended the fight, that is.

 

[Relique du Madde]

His staff kept Kogo's broken glass & tape wrapped knuckles at bay.






Well, until the one hit that ended the fight, that is.

But isn't that how it is like in most systems? The same thing routinely happened in a Heroes Unlimited game I once GMed . The non bricks could hit the badguy but not do damage and the Brick couldn't hit the badguy but was able to insane damage when if he hit.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yes & no.

Depending on your system mastery, your PC design and goals, and the campaign constraints, its perfectly possible- even EASY- to design a brick PC who has high OCVs and DCVs.

Just for giggles, he could have learned martial arts himself- some of those maneuvers will boost OCV or DCV. Or perhaps his "brick"-ness or his bonuses to OCV/DCV are situational- powers, chemicals, spells, surges, charges, etc.

I mean, in HERO, its possible to build a facsimile of Superman on 250 points if you're willing to have a PC who is über for just a couple of seconds, 1 time per day.

 

[Quantum]

I just wanted to say that I find it more than a little odd that the focus of the discussion has become "is M&M a level based game?" Is there something wrong with that (either way) that I've somehow missed? Does it make any difference in how M&M deals with the super hero genre?

Being right is serious business.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I just wanted to say that I find it more than a little odd that the focus of the discussion has become "is M&M a level based game?" Is there something wrong with that (either way) that I've somehow missed? Does it make any difference in how M&M deals with the super hero genre?

It could -- probably will, in fact -- make a difference (either way) to someone reading this thread, looking for a superhero game to play.

When (most) people think level-based, they think about games like D&D, in which you progress upward in level, gaining specific capabilities (many dependent upon class). Some people like level-based games (I do), and some people don't.

Calling M&M a level-based game, when so many people share the definition of level-based above, is giving people bad information. M&M is a point-based game, one that happens to use the term "Power Level" to describe the overall, uh, power level of the campaign, and that's information that is likely to be useful to people looking for a new game to play.

 

[pawsplay]

I think it is a useful and important distinction. On a scale of 1 to 5:

1 Aberrant d20, Heroes Unlimited, some kind of d20 plug-in like Four Colors to Fantasy
2 M&M (point-based, but hard limits), BESM d20 (hard level-based, but with fewer caps)
3 DC Universe (basically point-based, no discrete levels, but with caps and significant soft limits)
4 Hero (no discrete levels, somewhat scaled with significant soft limits), GURPS (no discrete limits, not scaled, but with suggested soft limits)
5 Marvel Super Heroes (no levels of any kind, no scaling, no limits)

 

[Wrathamon]

you heard about this one?

ICv2 - New Superhero RPG

 

[Fallstorm]

Having tried both MnM and HERO I would definately go with MnM. I started with the Hero 5 and Have played Hero 6e and I have found the complications and number crunching in the system to not be worth the final pay-off. This isn't so much of a problem as I am a power gamer who likes rules. Secondly, and my major grip with Hero is the powers in the system are too expensive therefore if the intent of the game is to replicate what is seen in comics then the system on its face fails. I mean, from some of the builds I've seen on the HERO boards even supers like Spider-Man and Batman are fall into the Cosmic level power category, and this simply should not be the case. Basically, I would say the HERO system is best for replicating street level heroes....if you play the game at the standard superhero level of 200 pts plus disads. If you actually play HERO as the various power levels indicated it seems your HERO is always running behind what the power level is supposed to represent.

I have not found this problem in MnM. In fact, MnM seems to be built with the philosophy of allowing the characters at PL10 (the starting PL) to do almost anything seen in comics, even things that are blatantly broken, but with caveat that the GM can deal with it in game via GM fiats or house rules vs making so expensive that it is impossible to do. Also, the power feats and stunts in MnM is good for handling those abilities that Supers have but very rarely use. In addition, it is a system that has a lot of crunch to it (for those of us who enjoy such things) just not as much Crunch as HERO, but the combat remains relatively fast and elegent....just like in the comic books.

I never played the actual CHAMPIONS game before it became HERO so some of the systems problems may stem from the fact that it was a supers game that morphed into being a multigenre game and the mechanics of the multigenre don't work as well for a supers game and vice versa. MnM is still young so it doesn't have this problem as of it, but as it continues and I see supplements like Warriors and Warlocks coming out they may at some point have the MnM engine be a multignere system with MnM specificallly being the supers system and then they will have the same problem HERO has, but hopefully, they will never get to that point and remain true to the superhero genre, which Steve Kenson has evidently studied greatly and designed MnM to duplicate almost flawlessly.

Peace,
Fallstorm