What does Videogamey mean to you?

[Jdvn1]

When an RPG is referred to as "videogamey," it seems to me that the person means that the game is simplified or easier to play. That the term has a negative connotation is silly. Is 4e videogamey? I would agree the ruleset is simpler (and also makes a lot more internal sense as a result) and easier to play than 3x. I also enjoy more complicated systems, but I think they tend to be not as well constructed.

Due to its negative connotation, I think that the term videogamey is a pretty bad term to use if you're trying to objectively describe anything. You might as well just say "simplified in a way I don't like" and be honest about your biases, or not complain at all and accept that new editions are new games and therefore different.

I can understand those who think the term has no meaning, though. When a term is overused, it can be used incorrectly. When the meaning is A, someone will use the term to mean something related to A, say B. Someone else will use the term to mean something related to B, say C. Eventually, the intended meaning of the term can contradict the actual meaning of the word, or at least be totally unrelated to the actual meaning, which will then cause people to not understand the intended meaning. Though there may actually be a meaning behind the word, there effectively isn't a meaning if no one understands it.

I wonder if soccer seemed hockey-ish to anyone when it was first played (or, whichever came first).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Whether something is or is not "videogamey" is probably an opinion that can't really be changed. Mainly because it's possible to find similarities and differences in any two items. It is as much "videogamey" as it is not "videogamey". That's an argument that is best not to have.

Agreed.

But whether a particular person likes or dislikes something is an opinion that might be changed. Certainly people have gone from disliking something to liking something in the past.

True, but how does having a specific definition of "videogamey" help? I don't see how it can.

Now, if someone shows up on a message board saying "I don't like this game because of the videogamey healing surges", how does the word videogamey in that sentence help it at all? If they had shown up and said "I don't like this game because of healing surges" it would be the same thing without the confusing reference to video games that doesn't seem to be relevant.

You're the one wanting the increased information, and "videogamey" gives you more info.

It does so because it lets you know that the person dislikes the game because of elements within it that remind him of videogames. It lets you know the source of the dislike.

Because we're here to have discussions. Discussions require understanding. Videogamey doesn't foster understanding.

It lets you know the source of the other's dislike.

I'm not here to argue whether something is or is not videogamey.

Then why do you (or those who ask for it) ask for greater detail? The only purpose of that greater detail is to attack the assertion that something is or isn't videogamey.

I'm trying to get at the root of WHY they don't like 4e so that I can understand.

See above. I don't like 4Ed for a variety of reasons, one of which is that it has videogamey elements.

I like to be able to say "Alright, when viewed through that lens, I can understand why you don't like it." I can disagree but still understand.

But "It is videogamey" doesn't help me understand.

How does the greater specificity help you?

I don't think any of us here are trying to convince people that videogamey means something other than what they are saying it means.

Then why does the greater specificity help?

We are here to suggest that the term stop being used entirely because all it does is make people angry.

It only makes those of us who use it angry when asked for greater specificity, then having to defend that definition from people saying "Well, that's not anything like WoW (or Tekken, or whatever), so you are in error!"

You've already said that you purposefully use it for its negative connotations in the other thread.

...because I'm critiquing the game.

Its the same as saying 4Ed is "too grindy" or its alignment system is "too simplified."

Showing up in a thread and saying things purposefully that you know are going to make people angry is pretty much the definition of trolling.

The starting point of any debate is a disagreement.

Just the fact that I'm critiquing a game that people love is going to hack someone off.

"I dislike elements of 4Ed like Healing Surges because they're videogamey." is not trolling. I'm expressing a perception of how I interface with the game.

"I dislike elements of 4Ed like Healing Surges because they're videogamey and would only appeal to prepubescent half-wits" would be trolling. By saying that, I'm actually insulting people for making a choice.

And greater specificity of "videogamey" wouldn't alter that one bit.

Why not stick to more neutral terms?

There isn't one.

 

[Njall]

Back on topic, as I wrote earlier, I think that, as far as RPGs go, I'd equate the term "video-gamey" to "feels so artificial that it breaks immersion".
That's why I think that "video-gamey" implies "non-realistic".

 

[Jhaelen]

... so, considering how the thread exploded overnight (and I don't have the time to read the whole thing):

I guess, the 'consensus' is, that 'videogamey' means something different to everyone?

 

[Bluenose]

Back on topic, as I wrote earlier, I think that, as far as RPGs go, I'd equate the term "video-gamey" to "feels so artificial that it breaks immersion".
That's why I think that "video-gamey" implies "non-realistic".

This makes me think that it's a very bad term, because of what it implies about video games. Anyone who thinks that video games are automatically "non-realistic" doesn't play many. The whole 'sim' genre is designed around realism. Consider a game like Microsoft Flight Simulator, which incidentally also takes the idea of linearity as a characteristic of computer games and *does something nasty* to it. And I don't imagine many people would claim that acting in turn on your initiative (as is common in tabletop RPGs) is more realistic than real-time simultaneous action (as is common in computer games).

Of course, the same argument appears in computer game forums, where the favoured pejorative for something which doesn't attempt to be as realistic as certain hardcore fans like is "arcadey".

 

[Jdvn1]

Re: neutral terms

There isn't one.

Didn't you say you had three definitions? Why not substitute a definition?

Though, I didn't see you post any definitions. I saw a post where you say it's "like" healing surges, and another where you list three things that could be construed as videogamey (a self-admitted broad, incomplete list). Further, the list is likewise unhelpful in discerning meaning from the term. An element of arcade combat games or MMORPGs? Well, they're played by people. You can take damage. You can attack things. Doesn't seem like a useful list. Even if you said, "Elements specific to MMORPG gameplay," it wouldn't be a good list because then nothing could be videogamey (if the element is found outside of MMORPGs, it's no longer specific to MMORPGs).

A more neutral way of saying that 4E is videogamey is, "4E would work better as a video game." At least, I think that's more neutral. Or, if the conversation is about a particular topic, you can just express your dislike for that particular topic. Maybe others can think of a more neutral term/phrase.

 

[Budalic]

A more neutral way of saying that 4E is videogamey is, "4E would work better as a video game."

Except that 4E, with all elements intact, would make a lousy game. It's turn based, and has limited resources mechanic that isn't too practical for a cRPG. 4e is built around six second snippets of combat that take six minutes to play. In cRPG six seconds last six seconds, real time. So recharging spells and powers work a lot better. It has grid and firecubes. 3E would work a lot better (it did, actually). The computer can parse complex rules.

4E is optimized in another direction: Ease of play at the table. It has elements that simplify reality for the ease of table play. I think that videogamey realy isn't a proper term - gamist is lot better. There are also simulationist and gamist computer games.

 

[Neonchameleon]

My problem with the term is that I consider 4e the least videogamey version of AD&D ever.

You don't run round picking up health packs (healing potions). You don't have an arcane magic system that makes absolutely no sense other than as a mechanical formulation (Vancian). You don't have really weird healing rules by which an almost dead 1st level wizard can be restored to back on his feet and in full fighting trim by a spell that wouldn't do much at all to a tenth level fighter (Cure Light Wounds). You don't have people that can keep going all day as long as the healing magics flow, or people who recover back to their full health readily and repeatedly (Healing Surges are part of that full health). Now to me that's all very videogamey so I get confused the other way.

Instead you have a group of action heroes with some default moves (At Wills), some signature moves (Encounter Attacks), and a bit they can do when pulling out all the stops (Dailies, Action Points). They get hurt, they draw on their reserves to keep them going, but the damage doesn't actually go away (they've now used the healing surges). Healing is based on the target's hit points. This is all genre emulation to me on a scene (or encounter) based cinematic game.

So I get confused by video-gamey used as a dig against 4e.

 

[Jdvn1]

Except that 4E, with all elements intact, would make a lousy game.

Consider that it was directed at those who would call 4E videogamey--you apparently wouldn't anyways. Besides, some video games are turn-based. I used to love Civilization. Also, "makes a better video game" doesn't mean a one-to-one translation of every element.

 

[Garthanos]

Reading material for those interested terminology useful in analysis of gaming (where the people don't imply pejoratives)

The Forge :: GNS and Other Matters of Role-Playing Theory, Chapter 2

Yes they too take it way too seriously ;p