What does Videogamey mean to you?

[Jdvn1]

First off, Celebrim extracted the "definitions offered" posts from the "Nuh uh" posts, and....surprise, surprise....there was a strong link of commonality to the "defintions offered" posts.

Celebrim earlier said that the term is used for a bunch of interrelated ideas which can't be articulated clearly, then later said that it either has no meaning or means "simplified" (possibly, instead, "limited choices").

If everyone can agree that videogamey=simplified (with a bad connotation), we're done here. Also, those people can stop using "videogamey" and start using "simplified" or "doesn't have enough choices."

Some people, however, have a bag of specific things which remind them of a variety of video games. That's what's hard to define. They claim that there's a single concept that combines all of these different aspects of different video games (Celebrim referred to ideas that can't be articulated). Those people might stop using the term and refer to the specific things they don't like and the games of which they're reminded.

 

[Budalic]

I'm just waiting for the day when I can criticize a video game by calling it 'too pen&papery'.

Well, I guess that some players would call Neverwinter Nights, Knights of old republic or Dragon Age: Origins "too pen&papery" if they knew what is pen & paper game.

 

[Celebrim]

Celebrim earlier said that the term is used for a bunch of interrelated ideas which can't be articulated clearly, then later said that it either has no meaning or means "simplified" (possibly, instead, "limited choices").

Do you consider it amazing how you can abstract my walls of text down to such terse statements and still accurately capture what I said?

Because if you could really do that, it would be amazing and I'd feel really silly for bothering to write so much to try to explain myself.

If everyone can agree that videogamey=simplified (with a bad connotation), we're done here. Also, those people can stop using "videogamey" and start using "simplified" or "doesn't have enough choices."

If you are going to simplify me down to the point where your paraphrase doesn't really look like what I said, please at least make some acknowledgement of the fact that you are vastly simplifying what I said. If I thought the terms 'simplified' or 'doesn't have enough choices' captured the idea (by themselves), I would have used them earlier and been done with it.

They claim that there's a single concept that combines all of these different aspects of different video games (Celebrim referred to ideas that can't be articulated).

And I claim that there might be just such a concept, or least, a small group of related concepts which when they appear together create the experience people are calling 'videogamey'. This concept is likely neither obvious nor easy to articulate, else the people using the term 'videogamey' would have reached for more readily understood and specific words like 'simple'.

I seriously doubt there is a one word definition here. I very much doubt that there is a single unawkward sentense that can serve as a defintion. Think for a moment of precise definitions for words like 'novel' (the literary form, not the synonym for 'new') or 'role playing game'. It's very unlikely that 'videogamey' has a more concise definition than either.

 

[Celebrim]

I suggested "4E works better as a video game" or referring to the specific unliked aspect of 4E being discussed or raised as an issue. (ie, if we're talking about healing surges, say you don't like healing surges, possibly mentioning that you don't like that it reminds you of something else)

I don't think that "works better [on the whole] as a [directly ported in its entirety into a] video game" is a good definition for 'videogamey', but if you want to defend it I'd be interested in hearing your argument.

Majoru Oakheart suggested "unrealistic" or "unintuitive" where appropriate.

The problem with 'unrealistic' is that it doesn't seem to capture the idea well, as we can easily come up with examples of things that are 'unrealistic' (hit points) that don't seem to trigger the 'videogamey' experience. We can also come up with things that are 'unintuitive' (THAC0, low AC being good), which aren't even remotely related to 'videogamey'. So I think that as definitions, 'unrealistic' is both too broad and too narrow. It excludes things in the set covered by 'videogamey' and includes things that aren't in it. It's quite possible that there is some overlap, especially for special applications of the word 'realistic' (and RPG players tend to use that word in alot of special ways), but I don't see the two sets as congruent.

Besides which, I'd like to avoid the word 'realistic' or anything derived from it, as the word is already loaded with definitions and shades of meaning when RPGers use it. It's frankly less concise and easy to understand what is meant than 'videogamey'.

Point is, there are tons of better ways to say something, many more specific words.

And if I knew what they were, I'd surely use them. To be fully and frankly conceited, I don't think the problem is the impoverishment of my vocabulary.

There may have been more suggestions.

None of which have been remotely adequate, in part because I do think they were sincere attempts to be helpful, but rather they were attempts to be dismissive.

By the way, if someone could narrow down "videogamey" to just five or six meanings, that'd be a huge step in the right direction.

Agreed. Indeed, we'd be almost home if we weren't in fact fully there.

 

[Jdvn1]

Do you consider it amazing how you can abstract my walls of text down to such terse statements and still accurately capture what I said?

Because if you could really do that, it would be amazing and I'd feel really silly for bothering to write so much to try to explain myself.

Yeah, it's easier with exhaustive lists. And, not everyone is as concise as possible all the time. I thought I did a pretty good job of paraphrasing you, though I admit I could've done a better job of making it clear that I was doing so (when I don't paraphrase/simplify I use quotes, so I thought it was obvious).

If you are going to simplify me down to the point where your paraphrase doesn't really look like what I said, please at least make some acknowledgement of the fact that you are vastly simplifying what I said. If I thought the terms 'simplified' or 'doesn't have enough choices' captured the idea (by themselves), I would have used them earlier and been done with it.

For the sake of clarity, I'd like to point out that I didn't simplify anything you said in this second batch of text you quoted. Also note that my proposed possible definitions aren't just from your text, but a broad simplification of the related definitions that have been proposed by other people as well. Just like when you summarized everyone's definitions before you, I wasn't talking about what just one person said (other than, of course, when I specifically mentioned you in my first paragraph).

And I claim that there might be just such a concept, or least, a small group of related concepts which when they appear together create the experience people are calling 'videogamey'. This concept is likely neither obvious nor easy to articulate, else the people using the term 'videogamey' would have reached for more readily understood and specific words like 'simple'.

I seriously doubt there is a one word definition here. I very much doubt that there is a single unawkward sentense that can serve as a defintion. Think for a moment of precise definitions for words like 'novel' (the literary form, not the synonym for 'new') or 'role playing game'. It's very unlikely that 'videogamey' has a more concise definition than either.

I would never try to seriously describe anything as novel-y or role playing game-y, as I would consider the terms to be vague and unhelpful.

 

[Jdvn1]

I don't think that "works better [on the whole] as a [directly ported in its entirety into a] video game" is a good definition for 'videogamey', but if you want to defend it I'd be interested in hearing your argument.

Without the bracketed parts, though! If one thinks that there are very many aspects of 4E that fit better in a video game, then I think "works better as a video game" is better phrasing. I don't think many think it should be directly ported in its entirety into a video game (at least, the 'y' in 'videogamey' strikes me as meaning 'a little bit like a video game' rather than 'it is a video game on my table' in which case one would say '4E is a video game').

The problem with 'unrealistic' is that it doesn't seem to capture the idea well, as we can easily come up with examples of things that are 'unrealistic' (hit points) that don't seem to trigger the 'videogamey' experience. We can also come up with things that are 'unintuitive' (THAC0, low AC being good), which aren't even remotely related to 'videogamey'. So I think that as definitions, 'unrealistic' is both too broad and too narrow. It excludes things in the set covered by 'videogamey' and includes things that aren't in it. It's quite possible that there is some overlap, especially for special applications of the word 'realistic' (and RPG players tend to use that word in alot of special ways), but I don't see the two sets as congruent.

Besides which, I'd like to avoid the word 'realistic' or anything derived from it, as the word is already loaded with definitions and shades of meaning when RPGers use it. It's frankly less concise and easy to understand what is meant than 'videogamey'.

Words derived from 'gamey' are better?

I think, at the very least, that for some people, unrealistic is a good term to use, especially when talking about specific aspects of the game (say, if one dislikes healing surges because they're unrealistic in a video game sort of way) rather than talking about 4E as a whole.

Which leads to Umbran's option being a good one as well, I think. You're not a fan of the other two options I mentioned, what's wrong with his?

And if I knew what they were, I'd surely use them. To be fully and frankly conceited, I don't think the problem is the impoverishment of my vocabulary.

I hope I didn't imply that it was, but one rarely uses the full extent of his vocabulary. Usually, people use what come to mind easiest, or at least they don't usually consider every option to think of better ones.

None of which have been remotely adequate, in part because I do think they were sincere attempts to be helpful, but rather they were attempts to be dismissive.

I think you're missing an n't ? Anyways, I don't know how to convince you otherwise. I sincerely think that videogamey is not a great term to use, and that there are better terms/phrasings to use, and that better terms/phrasings have been suggested.

 

[N0Man]

I admit I only read a few pages of these threads, so it's possible that someone has beat me to this, but...

I find it really strange how many things pop up as examples of being "video gamey" that are things that video games stole from tabletop RPGS (mostly D&D).

 

[Goblyn]

I admit I only read a few pages of these threads, so it's possible that someone has beat me to this, but...

I find it really strange how many things pop up as examples of being "video gamey" that are things that video games stole from tabletop RPGS (mostly D&D).

Yeah. The video games themselves are actually DnD-ey.

I'm impressed at how civil this thread has managed to remain.

As far as calling any TTRPGs video-gamey, IMXP the connotations have been good and bad in about the same proportion. Usually I've used it to describe particular sessions: "This is just like that scene in FF6 where we gotta bring down Kefka's retribution beam(or whatever it was called)!"

 

[Raven Crowking]

Many video games are, in fact, D&D-ey, and are so on purpose.


RC

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Re: neutral terms

Didn't you say you had three definitions? Why not substitute a definition?

The point of using a single word is to save myself the work of posting the same definition over and over again.

Though, I didn't see you post any definitions. I saw a post where you say it's "like" healing surges, and another where you list three things that could be construed as videogamey (a self-admitted broad, incomplete list).

That broad list are the definitions.

Further, the list is likewise unhelpful in discerning meaning from the term. An element of arcade combat games or MMORPGs? Well, they're played by people. You can take damage. You can attack things. Doesn't seem like a useful list. Even if you said, "Elements specific to MMORPG gameplay," it wouldn't be a good list because then nothing could be videogamey (if the element is found outside of MMORPGs, it's no longer specific to MMORPGs).

First, I didn't want to put words in the mouths of everyone else who has used the term, so I didn't define any elements in particular, save the healing surges which are one of my personal sticking points.

Second, as I've pointed out before, definition beyond that point is useless. Specificity in no way further the potential for useful discussion because all you can do with that is attack someone's claim that something is videogamey...and that means you're attacking a person's personal perceptions of how the game made him feel. How in the heck is that useful and productive?

Third, an element's exclusivity or lack thereof doesn't matter. if an element is more common in a MMORPG than in a P&P RPG, then its going to be more strongly associated with the MMORPG than with RPGs, and can validly be considered a "videogamey" element.

A more neutral way of saying that 4E is videogamey is, "4E would work better as a video game."

Consider that yet another viable definition of videogamey, and you'll use 7 fewer words.

"I don't like something because it is bad" does not allow any discussion. Of course people don't like bad things. How do you discuss it except to agree? Bad things are bad.

Again- that is not what "I don't like 4Ed because it is videogamey" means.

It means "I don't like something (4Ed) because it reminds me of something else (videogames)." The sentence give you a direct comparison of 2 things, not a bald assertion of judgement.

Consider this: "I don't like Nutella because it is hazelnutty." You have the same kind of comparison. You know what 2 things are being compared. You don't know why the person dislikes hazelnuts...but does it really matter? Are you going to be able to construct a logical argument why he should like hazelnuts, or why the hazelnuttiness of Nutella shouldn't be held against it?

I don't think so.

"I don't like this game because its rules are hard to understand" makes sense. Maybe someone can help you overcome your understanding of the rules and you may eventually grow to like the game.

Its one thing to try to help someone understand rules, its entirely another to try to reason away someone's emotional response.

If the definition of videogamey is that it is a game with too simplistic rules, then when someone shows up and says "I don't like 4e, it's too videogamey" then someone can reply with "I used to dislike it for that reason as well, but I found that the more you play the game, the more depth you discover in the rules. It seems simplistic at first, but if you play it for a while, you'll see it isn't. Give it a chance, I did...and now I have a lot of fun playing it."

It gives me a general category of dislikes. It lets me know that their problem may consist of:
Dislike of cartoonish depictions of characters
Dislike of simplified game mechanics
Dislike of complicated game mechanics
Dislike of "artificial" or "unrealistic" game mechanics
Dislike of limited choices
Dislike of mechanics which remove DM fiat
Dislike of laptops and computers used at the game table
Dislike of the disconnect between fluff and crunch
Dislike of standardization and similar structure between classes
Dislike of the removal of powerful non-combat solutions to problems
Dislike of the format of powers(i.e. being listed in mechanical ways)
Dislike of the lack of fluff in the game
Dislike of the skill challenge system(reducing roleplaying to a die roll like a video game)
Dislike of the videogame like ability to PCs to heal from any amount of damage
Dislike of the books encouraging buying and selling magic items
Dislike of "wishlists" for magic items
Dislike of the ability to turn magic items into residuum and back into magic items
Dislike of player entitlement(magic items being in the PHB)
Dislike of transparent rules
Dislike of non-standardization(monsters having different rules than PCs)
Dislike of math
Dislike of balance
Dislike of marking mechanics

Again, the multiplicity of meanings is immaterial- many perfectly good words have dozens of definitions, like "run."

All it tells me for sure is that there's something about 4e they don't like. And that they've played video games before. And that they've found something in common between the two that they didn't like about video games or felt should never have been brought over from the video games.

BINGO!

Now, ask yourself honestly, would greater specificity help the debate in any way? Look at any item on that list you provided, and think about how you'd address any one of those objections.

Now, ask yourself whether your counter to such a claim would be 1) welcome, 2) helpful, 3) likely to get the other party to change their opinion?

No, it's to find out the real reason they don't like 4e. To have a discussion with them about it.

The real reason is that "element X" reminds them somehow of videogames and they don't like that in an RPG. It is that videogameyness itself that intrinsically puts them off the game.

How does specificity help you do anything else but annoy them? You'll know precisely what element it is that pushes their button...and then you get to push it!

Because a conversation that consists of "Blue is my least favorite color because it colorful." isn't a conversation.

As I've stated before, that's not even close to the linguistic meaning of "I dislike 4Ed because it is videogamey." There, I've compared 2 different things.

What you've stated about blue is a comparison between one thing and a property of itself. That would be like saying "I hate 4Ed because it contains characters in it."

No, it also makes me angry for showing up and calling my game names and by proxy me for playing them. As soon as I see the word "videogamey" it starts to raise my blood pressure because of the number of times I've seen the word mean "game for stupid people" or "dumbed down game" or "game meant for powergamers and not roleplayers". All of which are insulting to me personally.

And I know you are going to say "I can't help if a word bothers you". No offense, but that argument is kind of silly.

And the people who used the word that way were wrong for doing so...but they did it not just by saying it was videogamey, but rather by responding with those hurtful words when someone asked for greater specificity.

IOW, it wasn't videogamey that got you pissed off, but the subsequent specificity that someone asked them to provide.

And now, every time you see that word, you latch on to that single definition that some clod used rather than the multitude of other definitions that have been provided since. Definitions that are critical of the game but not those who play it.

You know that word bothers people, you've been told that. Continuing to use it and hiding behind "I can't help how you react" is kind of disingenuous.

Except 1) the word is not intrinsically a personal insult- it has a single insulting definition among many that is probably used by a minority of people who've used it, and 2) despite other definitions being provided, you continue to latch on to the single personal insult, and 3) no other single word has been suggested that conveys the simple message of "I dislike those elements of 4Ed that remind me of videogames."

It's not quite the same. I have "solutions" to the game being too grindy.

And I posit that NOBODY has solutions to the game being perceived as videogamey by certain people, making the discussion of particulars pointless.

Videogamey just let's me know they've identified a relationship between 4e and video games...and that it's likely a bad relationship.

And I think that that is sufficient understanding. Delving deeper is unlikely to be productive.

(Has it been productive in this thread?)

If it's a post part way though a discussion it still is kind of a dare to people to disagree with you...

No, its simply an observation that the game has aspects that remind me of video games, and I don't like the nature of that reminder.

How are Healing Surges like a video game in a bad way that means we can take something useful from your comment and apply it to our games and game systems in the future.

Its bad in an entirely subjective and personal way. The mechanic of healing surges makes a lot of sense, but its an element that will always remind me of videogames, and I don't want that.

How can we make them non-videogamey healing surges?

Simple answer: you can't.

And if you look at your list of things that are videogamey and ask the same question, the answer is likely to be the same.

You can't make something that reminds people of videogames less videogamey unless and until that element stops appearing in popular videogames.

Its something beyond your control as a game designer or defender of the game.

Sure there is. I much prefer "unrealistic" where appropriate. Which covers about 90% of the times when "videogamey" would be used.

Balderdash!

(I always wanted to use that word.)

We're talking about a game that simulates magic and flying, fire-breathing lizards- IOW, it is by definition unrealistic. Videogamey is a far more specific term because it tells you that I don't like an element because it reminds me about something from videogames.

"Unintuitive" works well.

And again, this is far less accurate a complaint than videogamey.

That's assuming there's even a reason to show up on message boards and tell people who like a game about how much you DON'T like it in the first place.

In my case, there always is: someone asks what the assembled minds of a given website thinks of 4Ed; someone asks if WotC can do anything to change non-adopters into 4Ed buying gamers, or some such, and the genie is out of the bottle.

As yet, I've never just jumped into the 4Ed section of ENWorld and just spam-posted "4ED is videogamey!" in a dozen or so threads.

When I'm in that forum, I'm generally looking for discussions of elements of 4Ed I can use elsewhere, or for those threads in which people are asking for things they like about the game (and in those threads, I stick to the positives).

But if someone is asking for critiques, critiques I'll provide.