Edition wars...a GOOD thing? or if not, an APPROPRIATE thing?

[Raven Crowking]

Take the comment in the context of this discussion. How many edition wars discussions have there been in the past year and a half? How many times have they run over the same territory, ad nauseum? What's new about them? You think you're the first to suggest that they retread old modules? You aren't, by a long shot.

Ignoring the prejorative in "retread", are you actually suggesting that adapting old modules to the new edition is somehow "edition warring"?

Things we don't like happen. We need to deal with the fact, not sit and mutter about them to ourselves over and over for a year and more.

Out of curiosity, how do you characterize your participation in this thread?

One gets the impression that you would prefer folks to sit and mutter to themselves, so long as it is out of your hearing.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

To put this in a bit of perspective, we all likely know people who have moved on from failed romantic relationships in less time than some have moved on from their edition hatred.

Seriously, what is it about this that makes people unable to let go?

The reverse is also, and quite obviously, true: So some people don't like -- even hate -- 4e. Why do you care? What makes you unable to let go?

It seems to me that edition wars are made of a bunch of pots calling a bunch of kettles out for being cookware. And the pots don't want the kettles to be kettles, while the kettles are incensed that the pots want to be pots.

Nothing more; nothing less.


RC

 

[DanFor]

Maybe another question might be - why are people so unhappy with Pathfinder or D&D 3rd Edition that they start edition wars about 4E? What's so wrong with "their" game?...What's so bad about Paizo and all the other supporters for 3.x? Are they not creating good material for their game?

How about this question: Why can't people accept negative criticism concerning 4E?

Speaking for myself, I am quite happy with Pathfinder and 3rd Edition. I express negative opinions about 4E and WotC because my opinions regarding 4E and WotC are negative. The editions war comes into play when I'm told that my opinion is wrong and that I'm wasting my time.

My opinion is my opinion. I will debate the reasoning behind my opinion, but you're not going to prevent anyone from expressing their opinion by telling them that they are wasting their time. Of course, we are wasting time--we're posting on an internet forum dedicated to fantasy roleplaying games.

Will the repetious, incessant criticism accomplish anything? In my opinion, the outcome of the editions war remains to be seen.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The reverse is also, and quite obviously, true: So some people don't like -- even hate -- 4e. Why do you care? What makes you unable to let go?

Because they don't stop posting about it! How can I ignore it or not care when they clutter every interesting discussion that there is to be had with edition warring? Or start new threads on it?

What would you feel if I (and maybe 5 others or so) would go into every of your Raven-Crowking-Roleplaing-Game threads and post things like:
"I don't like this game. It is to nutellay."
"It seems to appeal only to a simulationist crowd of players that prefer building worlds instead of really go into the roleplaying and acting in character, or to people that love to get lost in over-complicated combat resolution systems.
"Why couldn't Raven Crowking play game that's works a little more like D&D 4? Why is there no common system resource management system used by all classes, does he not even care a little bit about people that like balanced game systems?"
"The healing system seems badly stolen of a variety of systems, and the crafting system looks like it's straight from World of Warcraft!"
"After all the discussion I personally had with Raven Crowking in various forums, and all the time I invested in explaining my views and learning his, he repays me with a game I don't care for, instead appealing to a totally different audience? Raven Crowking fired me as a customer!"

Of course, all of the above (except the nutellay) is probably utter nonsense (and definitely unresearched), but imagine if I and 5 other posters would come in every few posts and make such claims?

Or if they'd make threads like: "I gave up on this game from Raven Crowking". Would you be able to ignore that?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

How about this question: Why can't people accept negative criticism concerning 4E?

Can you accept negative criticism concering 3E?
- 15 minute adventuring day
- Overpowered spellcasters
- DM Preparation takes too long
- Grapple rules broken (and general combat maneuvers using inconsistent mechanics)
- Wands of Cure Light Wounds make the game videogamey and destroy my suspension of disbelief.
- CoDzilla
- The Big Six - mandatory magical items,
- Magic items defining most of the characters power, especially for non-spellcasters -> Everyone is dependent on magic.
- Static combats due to fullround actions.
- Save or Die effects ruin my fun
- Adventure Paths are railroads
- OGL destroys creativity - all systems look the same, everyone is rehashing the same mechanics.
- Challenge Ratings fail
- Craft rules broken or nonsensical

You can try to refute every single point here. That's fine.
In a week or so (if at all), some other poster will bring up the same points.

Now, let's assume you were smart and wouldn't try to refute anything. Can you say the same is true for every other 3E fan? Do you believe it to be true for every other 3E fan? Because once the edition wars really go the level of the above, I typically see 3E fans defending their game just as much as 4E fans defend their own.

But the difference is - I don't go into the Pathfinder forum or the 3E forum and tell everyone how 3E is bad and has flaws I don't want to work with and that I'd rather play a different game. Why should I? I can just play that damn other game!

 

[Raven Crowking]

What would you feel if I (and maybe 5 others or so) would go into every of your Raven-Crowking-Roleplaing-Game threads and post things like:

(Shrug)

Knock yourself out.

Or if they'd make threads like: "I gave up on this game from Raven Crowking". Would you be able to ignore that?

Quite literally, yes. That is what the Ignore feature is for.

(And, since I've had to push the release date back yet again, I could hardly blame them! )

But, let us say that, instead, I chose to engage them....after all, Wisdom is my dump stat. Would that by my fault or theirs? I think you know what my answer will be.

Each and every time I've gotten into some stupid argument on EN World (and there have been quite a few of them), it is my own fault for not simply letting it go. After all, EN World's Ignore feature (and overall moderation) makes it easy to do so.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Because they don't stop posting about it!

Again, by the way, the reverse is obviously true. 4e threads keep popping up in general. How do you think that makes people who hate 4e feel? You don't stop posting about it!

& Nor should you.

The world is large enough for 20 editions of 2 million games. Or more.



RC

 

[tyrlaan]

The reverse is also, and quite obviously, true: So some people don't like -- even hate -- 4e. Why do you care? What makes you unable to let go?

It seems to me that edition wars are made of a bunch of pots calling a bunch of kettles out for being cookware. And the pots don't want the kettles to be kettles, while the kettles are incensed that the pots want to be pots.

Firstly, what Mustrum said.

Secondly, where did I say 4e? There are people unable to let go on both sides of the fence. I'd suggest your reverse is not the opposite side of what I was talking about.

I'm not saying one "camp" is worse than the other. I'm saying that there are people who can't let go and there are people who can, have, or never had to because they never were upset in the first place. So I don't agree that this is a pot and kettle scenario, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Sure there are people that edition war that like to call out others for edition warring, but (a) they are by no means the entire population of edition warriors. and (b) it appears to be a tactic rather than the heart of the matter.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Again, by the way, the reverse is obviously true. 4e threads keep popping up in general. How do you think that makes people who hate 4e feel? You don't stop posting about it!

You are still missing a big point - I (and others) don't talk about how I don't like D&D 3E and think it's a terrible game for XYZ reasons. Maybe it is just because I don't actually think that, I didn't play 3E for 8 years because it sucked immensely. I enjoyed it. I just like another game more.*

Problematic are threads that not just critisize a game, but try to establish which game is "the best". Or the "true" D&D or whatever. This is not something that we will get decided here.

Maybe you could try creating an edition "comparison" thread focusing on what rules and elements you would want to keep. But even that is bound to end in edition warring, since there are elements from each editions people greatly disapprove of. Maybe if you keep it "D&D" neutral - e.g. you talk about a hypothetical independent white-label game system stealing of both.


*)
Maybe this perspective is simply missing for the "haters". They didn't come from playing 8 years of D&D 4 and then seeing 3E for the first time. They don't come from "this is good" to "this is even better", they went from "this is good" to "this is worse". But that still doesn't give people a right to start an edition war and limit the utility of EN World!

 

[Umbran]

How can I ignore it or not care when they clutter every interesting discussion that there is to be had with edition warring? Or start new threads on it?

How? By using your ignore list!

No, it isn't perfect - but if they are annoying enough that you cannot control yourself, consider using it more.