D&D 4E I admit it. I don't "get" 4e psionics.

[DracoSuave]

On the character builder, each Augment is its own card. So no worries on font sizes, there.


I wouldn't ban them. In fact, I'd be excited to see them in play! Maybe it would help me better understand the system. As for balance - I have no concerns there, so far; I think it's a bit unfair to pre-emptively ban them without giving them a fair shot.


Ditto. I think it's great to see the 4e design team really stretch the boundaries. But, like you, I am kinda on the fence here...

I think it's the limitation of 3 At-Wills which is really hurting my brain... And a failure to grasp what makes some higher-level At-Wills superior to the lower-level ones, rather than just simply more expensive.

-O

Well, when your Augment 2 for the higher level power is superior to the Augment 2 for your lower level power, it's really a no-brainer.

 

[Obryn]

Well, when your Augment 2 for the higher level power is superior to the Augment 2 for your lower level power, it's really a no-brainer.

That's just it, though - I'm not finding it to be a "no-brainer." That's the entire point of this thread.

I'm not positive that a more valuable Augment 2 is really that much better to have than a more useful At-Will. And when you figure in the math of Augment 4's and Augment 6's, my concept of the relative values of these powers gets shot.

If it's a no-brainer, please explain the decision-making process involved.

-O

 

[Piratecat]

I like psionics a lot, but I was really surprised when I played a lvl 15 ardent the other week. It was suboptimal to replace any of my lvl 1 at-wills with higher level powers - not one! - and I didn't end up needing to augment anything during our first fight. That suggests to me that while the powers are cool, the balancing isn't perfect.

 

[keterys]

The lowest level ones are too good, or the higher level ones not good enough, or maybe both.

If you can squint past that, it cleans up a bit. So, theory good, execution flawed. Ah well, eh?

 

[RangerWickett]

I thought you learned more at-wills as you leveled up.

 

[Obryn]

I like psionics a lot, but I was really surprised when I played a lvl 15 ardent the other week. It was suboptimal to replace any of my lvl 1 at-wills with higher level powers - not one! - and I didn't end up needing to augment anything during our first fight. That suggests to me that while the powers are cool, the balancing isn't perfect.

Oh, thank goodness... When I was messing around on Character Builder, that's more or less exactly what I found, too when I was making a Level 15 Ardent. My Level 1 powers were either better or more universally useful than the available higher-level ones. Here goes....

Level 1: Demoralizing Strike. Quite an excellent power; a -2 to all Defenses is huge. Augment 1 is great with the right party. Augment 2 is insane - a burst with a scaling defense penalty.
Level 13: The most comparable is Victorious Urging, but it's generally worse. One of your allies gets the effective +2 to attack the target. Augment 1 is situational. Augment 4 is, IMO, strictly worse and more expensive than the Augment 2 of Demoralizing Strike.

Level 1: Energizing Strike. At-Will, it's solid and will remain useful until high levels with the scaling Temp HPs. Augment 1 is a quick, low-resource way to revive a fallen companion. Augment 2 is effectively the Cleric's Healing Strike, sans mark.
Level 7: Maybe Rewarding Strike? It's theoretically surgeless healing, but it's conditional on another ally hitting and thus IMO less useful in general. Augment 1 is very situational. Augment 2 gives a whole lot of healing potential, but again that healing is conditional on your allies hitting. I'm not sure I'd switch, frankly.

Level 1: Focusing Strike. A saving throw is always handy. Augment 1 is situational. Augment 2 is basically Saves for Everyone.
Level 13: Finally a strict improvement in the form of Revelatory Strike, along with flexibility. (I probably wouldn't have taken Focusing Strike in the first place, though, but YMMV.)

Ire Strike: Basically, it's psionic Commander's Strike with a Vuln 2 All rider effect. Solid. Augment 1, situational. Augment 2 is very beefy, with ally movement, extra damage, and a scaling vulnerability rider.
Level 7: Mindlink Strike. Unaugmented is basically the same, but instead of vulnerability, you can shift. I'd rather have the vuln, but YMMV. Augment 1 is probably not worth it, unless you have PPs to burn. Augment 2 is a burst, but I think it's more situational and less useful than Ire Strike, overall.

Level 1: Psionic Shield. Um, honestly, I wouldn't take this one. But in this case, the Level 13 Revelatory Strike is strictly better.

I think that's my beef, honestly. Until epic levels, it looks like the Psionic At-Wills don't really get better.

-O

 

[Storminator]

Might depend on the party too tho. If you were adding an Ardent to our group, with my cleric, I would recommend skipping Focusing and Energizing Strikes. Not really a lot of need for more healing or saves. Unnerving Shove and Unhinging Strike would look better then, even if they aren't as good powers.

I'm not as enamored of the Ardent and Psion as I am of the Monk. Every power comes with a bonus movement power?! Sign me up for that!

PS

 

[Destil]

Yeah, battle mind has a similar issue, only sometimes the epic ones are worse than the heroic tier. At least

Psion has a handful of holes like this too.

I'm surprised such things slipped through, you'd think they would have noticed in playtesting and just swapped the levels around a bit. Maybe the problem is that they designed the level 1 ones to be balanced compared to other at-wills (at wills tend to be quite good and scale well) and didn't put enough thought into the higher level ones. Because the level 1 guy feels pretty okay next to a non-psionic PC.

 

[RangerWickett]

I kinda wish they'd taken a different option. You get power points still, and the 1st level at-wills can be augmented, but instead of replacing encounter powers with higher level at-will powers, you'd get additional augments that you could add to any power.

So like, ardents can Demoralize, Energize, Focus, or Ire. When you use one of those, you can spend power points to enhance it. Or you can spend power points to activate a higher level augment, which is not a power of its own, just a rider.

Maybe these could include utility things like "ally gets a save" or "ally gets resist 5 [energy type]," or attacks like "any other enemy adjacent to the target takes 5 damage (save ends)" or "the target experiences a moment of recent history; one ally chooses an expended encounter power and uses it on the creature." Or maybe you'd conjure a minion of ectoplasm, or link the local area to the far realm, letting you adjust the terrain, though that's more controller-y than leader-y. Obviously they'd spend more than 5 minutes coming up with the idea.

You'd end up with flexible hodgepodge powers. Sort of like how full style monk powers let you mix up nifty moves and attacks, this would let you mix up core powers and rider effects.

 

[MrMyth]

I'm largely of the agreement that the core of the power point system is perfectly well-designed... they just completely dropped the ball on actually designing the powers. Especially at higher levels, when some of those low-level powers with cheap augments (that have scaled based on stats) are so good, the system runs into problems.