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Pathfinder 1E Sandboxes? Forked from Paizo reinvents hexcrawling

Because I'd like to understand what you're talking about. I'd like to see an example of what you find so offensive. Funny, when Barastrondo made a similar claim in another thread, I asked him to come up with examples of fans of sandbox-style play calling 'badwrongfun' on other playstyles, and he couldn't, or wouldn't, either.

:hmm:

Haven't you ever heard the phrase "Products of Your Imagination"?

To be honest with you, the only thing about this that I find "offensive" is this "find me some specific examples, complete with links, or I'll assume that you're actually lying" vibe.

I think he is suggesting that you may be incorrect, which is not the same thing as lying.

Not too horribly long ago, I was sure that WotC had said something in a press release, until I was asked to cite it, reread the original, and discovered that I was wrong. Things like that happen all the time, to just about everyone, AFAICT. "Products of Your Imagination" are not limited to TSR Hobbies!

:lol:


RC
 

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Umbran said:
There is no "game" in that area - at that point it drifts off into collaborative storytelling.
False. You can "drift off into collaborative storytelling" all you like, with any amount of dice-tossing, but the contention that role-playing necessarily is "no game", it is to laugh!

Umbran said:
So, other than creating a rules-set to govern such things before play begins, how much "support" can a GM give for this goal before it ceases to be a sandbox?
Unbelievable.

That is just jaw-dropping. We've had 35 years of RPGs, going back to D&D, going back to the Braunsteins, going back -- via many games with game masters -- more than a century to "free" Kriegsspiele.
 

I'd disagree. All you need is a sandbox stocked with the appropriate elements and PCs willing to rise to the challenge. (And if they don't rise to the challenge? Then it's a different campaign.)

Yeah, I think you have a point. Back in the old days I did run campaigns that combined complete freedom of PC action with overarching evil forces and that did involve epic quests against evil. Yet the PCs were equally free to ally with evil - and some did - or do whatever else took their fancy. There was no "The premise of this campaign is..."

Where did that all go? Well, I guess I'm not 15 anymore and not GMing every day. And both my brain and the modern rulesets are much creakier and take longer than back then.
 

I think this is a relatively key crux: If you look at a description of player-directed action and see nothing but chaos, then a sandbox campaign isn't going to make sense to you. If you feel that the only way for a campaign to have structure or form or purpose is for the GM to supply it, then a sandbox campaign is essentially incomprehensible to you.
Why is it that sandbox proponents just love to put the words in other people's mouths?

Sandbox campaigns do not have a structure. That's the very definition of the sandbox - go anywhere, do anything, without any constrains except those set up by the world itself. Structure is a function of the story. A sandbox game may end up with a loose, somewhat coherent story, but that's a side-effect, not a purpose unto itself.

The players themselves are like a herd of cats. Left to their own devices, they'll pursue their individual agendas, which may sometimes coincide for long enough for them to work on a "common goal." But the game described in the essay which I was referring to in my post has a multitude of players, playing a multitude of characters, with no structure whatsoever, because each session is scheduled by the players, who also decide which characters to run, where to play, and, pretty much, what to do. The DM is there just to provide the scenery and what simply cannot amount to a very complex adventure, since it looks like each adventure must be concluded during the session, otherwise the whole freeform thing doesn't work. Maybe I'm wrong and people who managed to read more (I admit I'm not one of them) can explain in a couple of sentences how that works.

However, while I am most definitely disputing the ability of sandbox games to possess structure, I'm not complaining about form or purpose (both of which are very clear). I understand it completely, I just think it requires an extraordinary set of players and a highly unusual (and incredibly competent) GM to work.

For the record, I've played in sandbox campaigns. I loved the freedom, but every single one of them (bar one) devolved into terrible chaos and the GM finally had to terminate the campaign because individual player agendas became too much to handle and groups fell apart. I've also used sandbox settings (such as Wilderlands of High Fantasy) to complement my own games (I described my GM style in another post, if you need to look it up).

Incidentally, I'm sure that even a bad GM can run a sandbox game which revolves around players visiting random dungeons and looting treasure - which most "old skool" AD&D adventures were. I'm simply not interested in that style of play.
 

Structure is not only a function of plot.

Moreover, the antithesis of "forced structure" is not "no structure" but rather "chosen structure".

Finally, if you accept what you read as accurate, the result was that the players did schedule sessions, did impose structure on those sessions, and experienced a greater investment than they had in their previous, linear, campaign model. Far from being a "herd of cats", the players became responsible for the structure of the game, and therefore provided that structure.


RC
 
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Structure is not only a function of plot.

Moreover, the antithesis of "forced structure" is not "no structure" but rather "chosen structure".

RC
I disagree. My stance is that "chosen structure" is more like "accidental structure." "Chosen structure" implies that there is a fixed set of options to choose from. In a true sandbox, there is no fixed set. Everything is an option, and, thus, it cannot really be called an option anymore.

Finally, if you accept what you read as accurate, the result was that the players did schedule sessions, did impose structure on those sessions, and experienced a greater investment than they had in their previous, linear, campaign model. Far from being a "herd of cats", the players became responsible for the structure of the game, and therefore provided that structure.
Bolded text is the only thing that I read from the essay that you quoted. In the end, it's the only thing that matters, for sure, but the essay also implied that the GM was a lazy slob who had to be forced by his players to come up with plots for sessions, which is why the forced scheduling thing worked for him. It doesn't take a quantum leap to conclude that this laziness may also have contributed to the fact that his players were dissatisified with his linear campaign. Whatever a linear campaign is.
 
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To be honest with you, the only thing about this that I find "offensive" is this "find me some specific examples, complete with links, or I'll assume that you're actually lying" vibe.
No, Hobo, I don't think you're "lying," but since we're being honest here, when you start talking about the "subtext" of people's posts, particularly people with whom you don't agree, and can't or won't cite actual examples, then I have to wonder if you're seeing either what you expect to see or what you want to see.
 

Where did you get that idea from?
RC
From every single other sandbox proponent in this thread, except from you. I actually agree with a lot of your positions (even if I believe they apply to a very small set of players and GMs), but I fear that you are not extreme enough for the other sandbox people.
 

From every single other sandbox proponent in this thread, except from you. I actually agree with a lot of your positions (even if I believe they apply to a very small set of players and GMs), but I fear that you are not extreme enough for the other sandbox people.
Woohoo! Now I'm an EXTREME sandbox person! :cool:

I should get Cafe Press to make tee-shirts or coffee mugs or something.
 

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