Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder-Bo9S hotswapping

[Nifft]

A minor houserule of a warblade having to expend all maneuvers before recharging fixes that.

If your intent is to screw any Warblade who readies defensive maneuvers, then it's "fixed", but that's not the word I'd use.

See, not all his maneuvers can be expended voluntarily. Some have triggers (like "make a Will save"). If those triggers don't come up in an encounter, are you really going to tell him that he not only wasted a precious slot on a defense that isn't applicable this combat, but also now he isn't allowed to use his class features more than once?

Nice thought, but bad unintended consequences.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Glade Riven]

Well, obviously house-rules need to be adjucated on a per-case basis.

 

[Nifft]

Well, obviously house-rules need to be adjucated on a per-case basis.

Alrighty then.

Adjust it for the Warblade who has only one attack maneuver. All the rest of his readied maneuvers are defensive (i.e. interrupts).

Cheers, -- N

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I totally agree with the Pathfinder fix to Wildshape. A static boost to stats is the way to go. It's a fix that keeps one of the most iconic druid abilities without running the risk of it becoming horribly unbalanced (both during character creation and monster design).

I could also see a fix where they allowed you to get the physical stats but 100% forbid the casting of spells while wildshaped (basically getting rid of natural spell with the promise to NEVER print it again). Though, I find the Pathfinder wildshape fix to be the best however. The 3.5 wildshape got better with each new monster printed. Pathfinder designers and developers are free to create creatures without worrying about a druid abusing the monster (or any polymorph spell).

*eyeroll*

Set said it better than I ever could.

 

[ruemere]

*eyeroll*

Set said it better than I ever could.

Hey, it's a good start. Also, if you have issues with players abusing the system, assume some responsibility and put together an explanation as to why something does not work.

For example, summoning produces a flawed and weakened copy of a real creature. The copy cannot produce effects beyond your caster level or abilities which result in further conjuration effects.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

*eyeroll*

Set said it better than I ever could.

I find nothing in contradiction between what Set said and I said

Or you can do it right from the start, accept that this is a game where wizards and druids are supposed to be able to shapeshift, various casters are supposed to be able to summon up (or control) various creatures, and even Bob the Fighter and Jen the Rogue can take Leadership or insane ranks in Diplomacy and gain access to monsters as followers or allies.

PF allows wizards and druids to shapeshift. Its cool stuff, iconic for both classes (wildshape and polymorph), and still allows you to get a slew of handy abilities. However shapeshifting in PF makes an attempt to correct a 3.5 mistake of allowing the shapeshifter to assume the base physical stats of the creature.

Why that is such an absurd compromise is beyond me. If you think that the PF rules go too far, adopt the 3.5 rules for shapeshifting and be done with it.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I find nothing in contradiction between what Set said and I said.

Mainly, it was this part: "The 3.5 wildshape got better with each new monster printed. Pathfinder designers and developers are free to create creatures without worrying about a druid abusing the monster (or any polymorph spell)."

You identified the problem of such powers getting better with the new printed monster books, but instead of naming the massive power creep of some of the monsters in those books as the root of the problem, you consider the PC abilities that tap into those broken MM entries to be the root.

Sure, as more monsters are printed, the power will inevitably go up even if the new monsters are all balanced, just due ot expanded options. But save for Shapechange, a level 9 spell (and thus saw little use in actual gameplay), you never got the stuff that truly made new monsters unique: Qualities and Su and spell-like attacks. Druid eventually got a spell to gain the qualities of animals he assumes (in Spell Compendium; Enhanced Wildshape?), but that was still just animals, who tend to have rather mundane qualities, many of which a Druid could get via lower level spells anyway. So yeah. As long as new monsters printed are reasonable and not stupidly overpowered in the areas a PC can get-- fair physical scores, nat armor, number and base damage of its natural attacks, etc... -- and preferably not too ridiculous in the areas most PCs can't access. Just cause, you know...some of the later MMs and other monster books were just really broken.

 

[ruemere]

[...]some of the later MMs and other monster books were just really broken.

Upstream fixes for upstream stuff.
Upstream fixes to make upstream stuff more versatile.
Downstream fixes for downstream stuff.

In other words, fixes for core books should address core books issues.
Fixes for core books stuff should keep the options in.
Address issues of supplementary material in fixes published for specific supplementary material.

I find this to be the only sane approach to the problems you have mentioned. Attempting to address future and potential problems introduced by other developers is unreasonable - the best you can do is to keep the base system simple to maintain and relatively bug free.

Complaining about 3rd party material breaking core rules won't change anything.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

You identified the problem of such powers getting better with the new printed monster books, but instead of naming the massive power creep of some of the monsters in those books as the root of the problem, you consider the PC abilities that tap into those broken MM entries to be the root.

Sure, as more monsters are printed, the power will inevitably go up even if the new monsters are all balanced, just due ot expanded options. But save for Shapechange, a level 9 spell (and thus saw little use in actual gameplay), you never got the stuff that truly made new monsters unique: Qualities and Su and spell-like attacks. Druid eventually got a spell to gain the qualities of animals he assumes (in Spell Compendium; Enhanced Wildshape?), but that was still just animals, who tend to have rather mundane qualities, many of which a Druid could get via lower level spells anyway. So yeah. As long as new monsters printed are reasonable and not stupidly overpowered in the areas a PC can get-- fair physical scores, nat armor, number and base damage of its natural attacks, etc... -- and preferably not too ridiculous in the areas most PCs can't access. Just cause, you know...some of the later MMs and other monster books were just really broken.

I guess this is what I find elegant about the solution. PF Wildshape enumerates the powers it can provide and gives a fixed bonus to stats. This frees up designers and developers to make whatever monster they'd like knowing it won't be abused by a 4th level spell (which is commonly in play).

Look at the Pathfinder Tiger; Str 23, Dex 15, Con 17. Those are some fine physical stats. Let's just assume our druid had straight 11s for his physical stats. 3.5 Wildshaping into a tiger would give +12 Str, +4 Dex, and +6 Con, size large, a speed of 40, three attacks, pounce, rake, and grab.

Pathfinder Wildshape gives +4 Str -2 Dex (for being large), size large, a speed of 40, three attacks, pounce, and grab. Is the ability worthless now? No. However it does remove the boggling +22 to physical stats (and the tiger was just a single monster off the top of my head, you can probably find greater examples). In PF, to get the best use out of wildshaping into a tiger the druid build would need to be a little different (focusing on physical stats instead of mental stats). I find this to be a fine trade off as now their is a wildshape druid build and a more caster oriented druid build.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Mainly, it was this part: "The 3.5 wildshape got better with each new monster printed. Pathfinder designers and developers are free to create creatures without worrying about a druid abusing the monster (or any polymorph spell)."

You identified the problem of such powers getting better with the new printed monster books, but instead of naming the massive power creep of some of the monsters in those books as the root of the problem, you consider the PC abilities that tap into those broken MM entries to be the root.

That's because the problems with Wild Shape existed in core.

Know what stats a druid in 3.5 needs? Wisdom. And nothing else. Ever. And you know what? That druid can still be a better fighter then the Fighter can, because all he needs to do is wildshape into something else that has huge amounts of strength.

The problem wasn't that more and more monsters were printed that were more and more powerful. That just made the problem more apparent.

That, and your eyeroll makes no sense. At all. You can still turn into some sweet and awesome monsters, you just can't laugh and destroy the game as you do so.

Honestly it looks like you're disagreeing just so you could link to that and add a "Heh" at the end.