Meat Grinder/Killer Dungeon Adventures

Meatgrinders have been out of favor for a long time now. Probably because they're wildly disruptive to an established campaign.

I highly recommend their play, though. They're especially awesome as one-shots. Roll some "side PC" redshirts and go. Why worry about their future adventures when the odds are that none of them will survive?

Arguably, well-written meatgrinders with "outs" make players more resourceful and skilled, which is why I like to "unwind" by having the group roll new level 5 PCs or whatever for one session as a break. The redshirts may die, but the skills stay with the player.
 

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So a meatgrinder is just a dungeon where people die on a semi-regular basis? Those still exist: that's why raise dead in 4e is something you can get access to at level 5 for a relatively small sum of gold now.

Or does it specifically have to be over an extended period of attrition?

Personally I always understood a meat-grinder dungeon to be a dungeon where it was inevitably defeated by the 5th generation of characters. That is to say: characters die often, and while there might not be a TPK, no one character is likely to finish the dungeon start to end. That high rate of attrition still existed in 3rd ed, with the temple of elemental evil.
 

To me, a meatgrinder dungeon is one where every room you stumble into has a good chance to kill you (especially if you don't figure out the "one true way" to beat it).

In 1E, Tome of Horrors qualifies for this and I think the Giants series does as well (though not Drow or Slavers). White Plume Mountain might qualify, though the riddles in it make it more a barricade to delving deeper rather than a meatgrinder. Isle of the Ape is another that's definately a meatgrinder. Perhaps Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure?

In 2E, I'd say Labyrinth of Madness, The Dancing Hut of Baba Yaga and Night Below qualifies. Not sure about Dragon Mountain - it intends to be one with "Tucker's Kobolds", but I get the sense it pulls it off poorly.

In 3E, I'd say Red Hand of Doom qualifies. Goodman's Crypt of the Devil Lich and S&S's Rappan Athuk would qualify as well, says I. I also think the Expedition To... adventures were devised as meatgrinders.

I'm not familiar with 4E, so I don't feel qualified to comment there.
 


Fair enough, so what would you classify as some of the classic meat grinders?
I think of the original Temple of Elemental Evil as the iconic meatgrinder.

I can't really remember many of the older modules very well anymore, though.
Personally I always understood a meat-grinder dungeon to be a dungeon where it was inevitably defeated by the 5th generation of characters. That is to say: characters die often, and while there might not be a TPK, no one character is likely to finish the dungeon start to end. That high rate of attrition still existed in 3rd ed, with the temple of elemental evil.
That's what I think of as a meatgrinder too. Tomb (not Tome, people) of Horrors is a unique kind of thing, unlike any module before or sense, in most senses.
 


I'd have to agree with the idea that it was a paradigm shift that happened back in the days of 2e.

On a personal anecdote level, which is yes, largely useless, 2e happened around the time that a lot of us red-box kids were going off to college. You know those famous hints of "experimentation" in college? It became easy to try a lot of different game systems, and figure out what you liked best from each. It also meant you were exposed to a lot of different play styles. In our case, when the dust settled, we were entrenched in a few ongoing games of D&D, Champions and Vampire. Those informed one another, so our D&D swiped elements of long-term character play from things like Aaron Allston's Strike Force or Vampire's advice on Storytelling.

These days, I've noted that I can really only talk some of my players into a one-shot if they really enjoy the game system -- the specifics of rolling dice, what you do in combats, etc. Otherwise, "it's time wasted that we could be spending with our regular campaigns." The more long-term campaigns you see disintegrate around you before closure is reached, the more that attitude is reinforced. Us having been through a few moves, my wife in particular is particularly resistant to spending time on disposable characters to see if she can beat the intellectual puzzle of a killer dungeon.

I also think that the old "bragging rights" aspect of beating a meat-grinder is mostly gone these days; the more fractured and factional the hobby base gets, the less people care about sharing war stories. Further, the less interested they are in even trying something that "that other guy" likes. The virulent partisan for a favored edition or play style does a lot to keep others who hear him from giving his edition or play style a fair shake. It's true for all kinds of play (as WotC's marketing may have discovered) and the meat-grinder is no exception. All it takes is one toxic fan.

While I'm at it, I think that the challenge of the meat-grinder is one of the areas where video games can effectively compete with tabletop RPGs. Even if the number of potential solutions to any given problem is reduced, the raw question of "Can I beat this location?" translated very well. Demon's Souls is talked about in the same tones of voice as the Tomb of Horrors. So you get a very similar sense of intellectual challenge and emotional catharsis (rolling up a new character and restarting a level aren't too far apart), but the video game is more convenient by far. With the intellectual and emotional payoffs so similar, preferring the tabletop to the video version is really a matter of taste.

Short version: I agree that the meat-grinder probably lost popularity in the early '90s. I think there are several factors that keep it largely at niche appeal in the present day as well.
 
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I would consider Apocalypse Stone, Paladin in Hell, and Die, Vecna, Die! to be meat grinders. All are late 2E adventures.

In 3.X, Paizo's adventure paths look like meatgrinders to me. Particularly the latter parts of Age of Worms and Savage Tide.
 

In 3.X, Paizo's adventure paths look like meatgrinders to me. Particularly the latter parts of Age of Worms and Savage Tide.

And not just the latter stages of Age of Worms. I have seen many, many comments that Three Faces of Evil (I think the second module on the Path) is a meatgrinder as well.
 


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