Meat Grinder/Killer Dungeon Adventures

[olshanski]

So we have potentially 2 definitions of meatgrinder.

We all agree that "Tomb of Horrors" was something, and that the 3.0 edition of Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil was something else.

If you want to call "Tomb of Horrors" a killer dungeon, because it had frequent deathtraps... that's fine.
You could then call "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" a meatgrinder, because it had a grinding aspect (very long) and it was also very deadly.

I'd say that 4E published modules so far are not at all in the "Killer Dungeon" mold, because the point of 4E was that save-or-die effects are gone, and it takes significant effort to kill a character. There have been some good "killer dungeons" as late as 3.5 edition, including the adventure "Crypt of the Devil Lich".

For edification: Here is part of Crothian's review of Crypt of the Devil Lich

I think Crypt of the Devil Lich does a great job in doing what it sets out to do: provide the DM with a 'meatgrinder' PC-killer of an adventure that any PC would be proud to be able to boast that he survived. The numerous player handouts add greatly to the adventure's appeal, and the majority of the tricks and traps in the crypt are very well thought out, with rules accounting for most everything a PC might try.

Note that this is called a "meatgrinder" in the review.

 

[Raven Crowking]

My players called "Pod Cavern of the Sinister Shroom" a meat-grinder, and that is a recent OSRIC module.

 

[coyote6]

And not just the latter stages of Age of Worms. I have seen many, many comments that Three Faces of Evil (I think the second module on the Path) is a meatgrinder as well.

It's pretty brutal. I think we had two or three nigh-TPKs (saved only by the cleric having a feat that gave him Fast Healing when he dropped to negatives).

 

[howandwhy99]

Meatgrinders are anything that is a high difficulty level for the module level (area level) in general. So any module could potentially be a meatgrinder, if it is placed in an area below its' level. It needs only contain elements beyond the skill level of the group. Too high of difficulty with too high of penalty for failure equals frustration and potentially high resource loss.

I think a module is best understood as the starting configuration of a puzzle. The more complex the components of the puzzle, the more difficult it is to solve. Too high and you get confounded players. If it can kill PCs merely by probing its' make up, then it is probably more of a "killer dungeon" than a meatgrinder in my view. If it is too difficult to figure out, like a group of 10-year-olds trying to figure out how to get past only the fair tricks and traps of S1, then it is a meatgrinder. It is too difficult a game for the players no matter the statistical benefits offered by high PC bonuses held by them.

Module difficulty in D&D, as it's something of a cooperative situational puzzle game, corresponds closely with game complexity. By keeping things simple at early levels and increasing challenge complexity at higher levels the players learn how to solve more difficult puzzles due to prior experience. Player experience then is commensurate with PC Experience totals regarding the specific game (puzzle) played.

 

[ExploderWizard]

By keeping things simple at early levels and increasing challenge complexity at higher levels the players learn how to solve more difficult puzzles due to prior experience. Player experience then is commensurate with PC Experience totals regarding the specific game (puzzle) played.

Alas, I gotta spread some XP around.
The large disconnect between player skill and character ability has probably caused many players to forget about this.

 

[the Jester]

Has the "meat grinder" kind of adventure concept been discarded/lost with the current D&D edition? Have the new mechanics or the new culture stomped out the "killer dungeon" concept? Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

Meat grinders are alive and well in my campaign, but the current edition's characters are surprisingly durable. There are less instant death effects and it takes far more damage to kill a pc (NEGATIVE BLOODIED, yo)!

 

[ExploderWizard]

Meat grinders are alive and well in my campaign, but the current edition's characters are surprisingly durable. There are less instant death effects and it takes far more damage to kill a pc (NEGATIVE BLOODIED, yo)!

Triple the damage on monster at wills and you should be good to grind.