Whatever happened to Necromancer Games?

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JoeGKushner

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Role Aids, Arduin, and of course the good old Judges Guild. Some solid stuff there.

But in the whole 3pp selling more than WoTC... it just wasn't happening. If it was, we wouldn't be playing Dungeons and Dragons. We'd be playing AEG's Warlords of the Accordlands (another huge bomb thanks to timing) or some other RPG and WoTC would be twitching their mustache talking about getting back on top soon.
 

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Treebore

First Post
Role Aids, Arduin, and of course the good old Judges Guild. Some solid stuff there.

But in the whole 3pp selling more than WoTC... it just wasn't happening. If it was, we wouldn't be playing Dungeons and Dragons. We'd be playing AEG's Warlords of the Accordlands (another huge bomb thanks to timing) or some other RPG and WoTC would be twitching their mustache talking about getting back on top soon.

Totally forgot about Accordlands! Plus didn't they try and do the Worlds Largest City release about the time of the 4E announcement? That seemed to practically cripple them. I haven't gotten the same "vibe" from the company ever since. It shocked me that they did Ultimate Toolbox as a soft cover. I'm glad they did, and their publicly stated reasons make good sense, but I still have my suspicions...
 

BryonD

Hero
But in the whole 3pp selling more than WoTC... it just wasn't happening.
No doubt. I don't claim otherwise. I *DO* claim that my personal buying of 3PPs was much higher than WotC and that divide grew over time. And, I know that is true for many others as well.

But, there are vast numbers of people that don't buy 3PP at all. You specifically said that people started avoiding 3PP after "being burned by companies like Mongoose so often". Your claim that the bulk of people bought 3PP and then fled from it due to quality is not correct. Trying to retrofit an unrelated and absurd point into that is not very beneficial.

If it was, we wouldn't be playing Dungeons and Dragons. We'd be playing AEG's Warlords of the Accordlands (another huge bomb thanks to timing) or some other RPG and WoTC would be twitching their mustache talking about getting back on top soon.
"We" aren't playing Dungeons and Dragons....

:p

(at least not WotC D&D)
 


Azgulor

Adventurer
If it was not due to the quality then why in your opinion did they stop buying 3pp?

I can only speak for my own experience but here are the reasons I spent less (didn't stop buying) 3PP content. Note: 3rd-party products are what brought me back to D&D (3.5). While I had picked up 3.0, I never played it.

1. General economic pressures. The economy started going sour and in a competitive technology job, it was time to tighten the belt and build up the f-u fund. I couldn't tell my family to cut expenses and then continue to support my RPG hobby at the same rate.

2. More discerning tastes. By this time, I'd narrowed down my list of go-to publishers. WotC didn't make the list as I became increasingly disillusioned with each successive 3.5 splatbook. In some cases, it was a matter of choosing a particular product from similar offerings by different publishers. In others, it was simply a matter of "what will I use in my game more often?".

3. Less new material offered. There was the glut, the near-certainty of 4e, the once-burned/twice-shy effect that 3.5 had, and no clear picture of whether an OGL would exist. The larger and/or wiser 3PPs made business plans to adapt, smaller and/or less-wise ones didn't and suffered for it.

Ultimately, as a consumer, I became choosier about my purchases for a combination of reasons. However, I was still buying 3rd-party products. Coincidentally, the reviews by Crothian and Joe Kushner became one of my primary methods for vetting/prioritizing those 3PP purchases.


In the end, the reasons for declining sales of 3.5 & 3PP products have no single smoking gun.

I think the sad reality is that most publishers (WotC included) developed business plans that assumed a higher sustained level of sales than materialized. Was the glut the reason for the decline in sales? It certaintly was a component but it's unlikely it was the only reason - economics are seldom so simple. Was quality the reason for the decline? I'll stack any Green Ronin d20/OGL supplement in my library against WotC 3e product. Against the core rulebooks, it's close. Against the later 3.5 splats - no contest. GR's books win hands down.

The 3PP market for 4e is tiny by comparison. Certainly, the dearth (i.e. greatly diminished count compared to 3/3.5) of 3rd-party product has not translated into a 1:1 uptick in WotC sales or growth in other RPG games.

To use the technology cycle as an example, the end of 3.5 is analagous to commoditization of a product - what once brought a premium no longer could do so. As with any industry, developing one's business plan in sync with that cycle is crucial. Do it well, you usually see sustained growth. Do it less well, and you will have declines or peaks-n-troughs along the way. Also, today's partner is tomorrow's competitor. It happens, people.

Being RPG enthusiasts, we think in terms of the hobby first (as we should) yet that's dangerous for a company. The companies have to think in terms of profit & sustainability (as they should - employees paychecks depend on it).

WotC chose to reinvent its business plan with a new edition, tight control of electronic content for that edition, and a greatly pared down 3PP environment. They gambled that the significant change in their business plan would net them more customers than they lost. By purely anecdotal evidence, it was a successful business plan. However, by equally anecdotal evidence, it has no produced the same level of sales as 3.0/3.5. It also created a significant rift in the D&D community over what it had in the heyday of 3e. As ENWorld frequently highlights, one can argue if the success achieved by 4e was greater than, less than, or equal to the business plans' targets.

Green Ronin, Mongoose, and Fantasy Flight Games unhitched their wagons from the OGL to pursue other RPGs and lines of business. As to whether they are growing, declining, or holding steady, I can't say.

Paizo rolled the dice and (by equally anecdotal accounts) succeeded beyond their best-case scenario.

Necromancer took a wait-and-see approach - because they were small enough to be able to do so. Necromancer games wasn't (to my understanding) anyone's primary source of income.

The only thing consistent amongst those examples is that they each have different, and in some cases wildly different, business plans.

Ultimately, it's business. Labors of love for many, but without operating capital, it reverts to being just a hobby.


As for me? WotC gets $0 of my gaming budget. No malice, just fact.
Paizo = 70%
PF-compatible products = 20%
Other 3PP = 10%

I'm still a 3PP-fan. Here's hoping Necromancer has great success with PF-compatible products. :)
 


JoeGKushner

First Post
I *DO* claim that my personal buying of 3PPs was much higher than WotC and that divide grew over time. And, I know that is true for many others as well.

Can't argue personal preference.


But, there are vast numbers of people that don't buy 3PP at all. You specifically said that people started avoiding 3PP after "being burned by companies like Mongoose so often". Your claim that the bulk of people bought 3PP and then fled from it due to quality is not correct.

Part of it was being burnt. Part of it, the larger part probably, is that most people prefer official content to begin with. If they didn't, as I mentioned earlier, we wouldn't be playing D&D. D&D would be some side brand of the game as opposed to the biggest dog in the house.

But perhaps a poll to show people's preference? I know when 3pp shows up, Mongoose gets tossed into the ring a lot as well as companies like the guys who did that super hero d20 game the Foundation as to why 'official' products are better.
 

TarionzCousin

Second Most Angelic Devil Ever
So anyway, long story short: I haven't bought a thing off of WotC since Rules Compendium and not much else for two years before that. But I was supporting 3pps more and more.
Do you have the Magic Item Compendium? I have found that extremely useful for DM'ing 3.75E (Trailblazer).

The Rules Compendium was extremely useful. I only wish it had come out a year or two earlier. :(
 

Wicht

Hero
Do you have the Magic Item Compendium? I have found that extremely useful for DM'ing 3.75E (Trailblazer).

The Rules Compendium was extremely useful. I only wish it had come out a year or two earlier. :(

I don't have the magic item compendium, no. Not sure if I would use it or not. When we have a caster interested in making magic items, the lists get perused for abilities and costs but otherwise, I simply give out treasure to suit my whim or according to the prepublished treasure contents.

One point to add to the 3pp discussion. My feeling is that there are more 3pps supporting Paizo now than WotC. Likewise, I also glean from tidbits dropped here and there that 3pp sales are higher in support of Pathfinder than 4e. It will be interesting to see how that plays out in a couple of years. As a newly minted freelancer in the business, it has been my sense that Paizo is creating new opportunities for up and comers like myself that are missing from the 4e world. Whether it is the Superstar contest creating awareness or simply an influx of publishers looking for some talent, the Pathfinder OGL boom, while smaller than the 3e boom, in some ways reminds me of those heady years.
 

JoeGKushner

First Post
Paizo is indeed doing some good stuff with their various 3pp partners. The paper models for example are a top notch idea.
 

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