I meant, do the weapon qualities other then it's dice size carry over when you throw it. As in, does it count as its weapon class (like axes for the Reaping Axe feats, or Heavy Blade with HBO), and carry over other qualities like high crit, brutal, etc. Or does the fact that it counts as an 'Improvised Weapon' override everything that the weapon comes with?
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Ranged Opportunity Attacks?
- Thread starter chorolus
- Start date
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Yup. Basically the character build you're trying for goes against the grain. The rules actually are designed to PREVENT characters from being able to do OAs anywhere on the battlefield and throw super high damage weapons and such.
Its arguable that you may be able to use one or two specific powers and one feat to get something like a limited ranged OA, but the most common reading in all those cases is that you STILL have to be adjacent. The ranger Spitting Cobra Stance power is somewhat of an exception, but is a daily stance power, so its not something you can do all the time.
As opposed to focusing on OAs I think you'll have more success skinning a hand axe, shuriken, or dagger as a chakram and building a character around that. Depending on how capable the character wants to be in melee and other considerations a seeker, ranger, or rogue will work. A pretty good build would be a beast master ranger with Twin Strike and chuck-'n-charge or some variation on that.
Its arguable that you may be able to use one or two specific powers and one feat to get something like a limited ranged OA, but the most common reading in all those cases is that you STILL have to be adjacent. The ranger Spitting Cobra Stance power is somewhat of an exception, but is a daily stance power, so its not something you can do all the time.
As opposed to focusing on OAs I think you'll have more success skinning a hand axe, shuriken, or dagger as a chakram and building a character around that. Depending on how capable the character wants to be in melee and other considerations a seeker, ranger, or rogue will work. A pretty good build would be a beast master ranger with Twin Strike and chuck-'n-charge or some variation on that.
Aulirophile
First Post
What? No. If a power says "Provokes an OA" it provokes an OA, being adjacent only matters for the normal provoking rules. Specific always beats general. If something says "provokes an OA" then it does, regardless of any other factors. Now whether you can actually take it is entirely differently, you couldn't OA from 4 squares away unless you could make Ranged OAs or had reach 3. Both Sharpshooter (for bows only) and Seven Fates Archer (for all ranged) get around the range issue handily. Go ahead and quote the rule that says you have to be adjacent to make an OA.
Also Spitting Cobra Stance is now an Immediate Action, not an OA, so it is limited to one attack/round. Was errata'd a long time ago.
EDIT: Just to hammer the point home, if your made-up rule actually existed, Polearm Gamble wouldn't work.
Too bad there isn't a way to increase your polearm reach beyond the standard 2 square reach...there isn't right? Cause that would be pretty awesome, lol.
Atm, I'm thinking the optimal way to build this character is to focus on axes early on, getting the Reaving Axe feats to inject more OA's on a regular basis--and knocking anything prone is a pretty sweet controller-like ability that would work beautifully with this 'mostly-striker' build. ASAP, she could get the Grounding Shot and Headman's chop feats to be able to hit prone targets normally as well as dealing +5 damage when she does, and she could get some of the mobility/opportunity attack feats like Agile Hunter(+2 to power-related shifts...will stack exceedingly nice with Nimble Strike and Battle-Scarred Vet/Ghostwalker Style), Blade Opportunist/Combat Reflexes, Defensive Mobility/Battle Caster Defense...there are so many options, I think this characters greatest weakness will be a shortage of feats...but she will have enough to have a very well-rounded style of combat.
Power-wise, I'm definitely getting Twin Strike and Nimble Strike(with the Seeker Hybrid, that means she'll have to be Human), then for her encounter/daily/utility choices she will focus on powers that slow/hinder foes, or provide other useful utility abilities, to take advantage of her mobile/ranged focus.
I'm still working on her in the Character Builder, but I'll post her sheet up here once I finish it.
As soon as the GM allows it (or should I say if....?), she can get a pair of throwing Khopesh with the Farbond Spellblade enchantment, which becomes available as early as lvl 2. Later on around lvl 11, she can pick up HBO then Deadly Axe and a few other critical attack-based feats too. HBO would let her use Twin Strike to fling her weapons around every time she got an OA, which would double her chance to crit and knock stuff down =]
---edit---
Might delay getting HBO, the Reaving Axe feats, and a few other feats till lvl 16ish, when her Seeker PP will let her actually perform ranged OA's... And I also can't seem to find any Seeker multiclass feats, are there any?
Atm, I'm thinking the optimal way to build this character is to focus on axes early on, getting the Reaving Axe feats to inject more OA's on a regular basis--and knocking anything prone is a pretty sweet controller-like ability that would work beautifully with this 'mostly-striker' build. ASAP, she could get the Grounding Shot and Headman's chop feats to be able to hit prone targets normally as well as dealing +5 damage when she does, and she could get some of the mobility/opportunity attack feats like Agile Hunter(+2 to power-related shifts...will stack exceedingly nice with Nimble Strike and Battle-Scarred Vet/Ghostwalker Style), Blade Opportunist/Combat Reflexes, Defensive Mobility/Battle Caster Defense...there are so many options, I think this characters greatest weakness will be a shortage of feats...but she will have enough to have a very well-rounded style of combat.
Power-wise, I'm definitely getting Twin Strike and Nimble Strike(with the Seeker Hybrid, that means she'll have to be Human), then for her encounter/daily/utility choices she will focus on powers that slow/hinder foes, or provide other useful utility abilities, to take advantage of her mobile/ranged focus.
I'm still working on her in the Character Builder, but I'll post her sheet up here once I finish it.
As soon as the GM allows it (or should I say if....?), she can get a pair of throwing Khopesh with the Farbond Spellblade enchantment, which becomes available as early as lvl 2. Later on around lvl 11, she can pick up HBO then Deadly Axe and a few other critical attack-based feats too. HBO would let her use Twin Strike to fling her weapons around every time she got an OA, which would double her chance to crit and knock stuff down =]
---edit---
Might delay getting HBO, the Reaving Axe feats, and a few other feats till lvl 16ish, when her Seeker PP will let her actually perform ranged OA's... And I also can't seem to find any Seeker multiclass feats, are there any?
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AbdulAlhazred
Legend
There's no 'made up rule', the rule for OAs is that you need to be adjacent. This has already been explained by another poster up thread and unfortunately for your theory it is entirely correct. Spitting Cobra Stance aside, there just isn't any easy way to get OAs anywhere in range. There may be SOME way to do it but its going to come with significant limitations. And yes, SCS is now an IA, its still pretty close to the only way to get anything resembling a ranged OA.
I'd suggest if you have doubts about that take it to the 4e Q&A thread where you can get some fairly good analysis and find out what the official rulings say on the subject. Looking through charops and some of the guides is instructive too.
As I said before, the rules are DESIGNED not to allow characters to constantly OA all over the board. It would be ungodly powerful as its quite trivial to make basic attacks do VERY high damage and a character who can come up with a way to constantly OA is able to achieve huge DPR fairly trivially. This is WHY SCS was nerfed. Its also why Agile Opportunist is trivially abusable (or worthless depending on how you parse it).
Er, yeah. There's a big difference between Polearm gamble (which is a terrible example, as it never mentions the words "provoke an OA" -- just that you can -make- one) and Reaving Axe Slayer.
Specific beats general -- but only where it actually says anything.
The default for the game is: When something provokes an OA and is in your threat range, you can make an OA if you haven't already made one on this creature's turn.
Whip Crack is a great example of how this works: "Effect: Until the start of your next turn, when an enemy within your reach takes an action that provokes opportunity attacks from adjacent enemies, it provokes an opportunity attack from you." So it doesn't change what provokes at all -- but it overrides the rules that provoking OAs only happens from adjacent enemies.
Now, Reaving Axe Slayer says: Whenever you score a critical hit against an enemy, you also knock that enemy prone, and the first time it stands up before the end of your next turn, it provokes an opportunity attack.
Does it say who it provkes an OA from? No. So you could read it as "provokes an opportunity attack from all enemies", or "provokes an opportunity attack from you" -- either of which would let you make an OA when it stood up regardless of where you were. But while that's -reasonable-, it's also clearly wrong; it's more or less a deliberate misreading of the rules. Yes, in this version of the game (unlike previous ones) they never actually spell out that the default range for "provokes an opporunity attack" is adjacent...until you look at, say, the wording for Threatening Reach: A creature that has threatening reach can make an opportunity attack against any enemy within its reach that provokes an opportunity attack.. Which implies that the game still has a default threat range -- and that that default is still "adjacent".
Specific beats general -- but only where it actually says anything.
The default for the game is: When something provokes an OA and is in your threat range, you can make an OA if you haven't already made one on this creature's turn.
Whip Crack is a great example of how this works: "Effect: Until the start of your next turn, when an enemy within your reach takes an action that provokes opportunity attacks from adjacent enemies, it provokes an opportunity attack from you." So it doesn't change what provokes at all -- but it overrides the rules that provoking OAs only happens from adjacent enemies.
Now, Reaving Axe Slayer says: Whenever you score a critical hit against an enemy, you also knock that enemy prone, and the first time it stands up before the end of your next turn, it provokes an opportunity attack.
Does it say who it provkes an OA from? No. So you could read it as "provokes an opportunity attack from all enemies", or "provokes an opportunity attack from you" -- either of which would let you make an OA when it stood up regardless of where you were. But while that's -reasonable-, it's also clearly wrong; it's more or less a deliberate misreading of the rules. Yes, in this version of the game (unlike previous ones) they never actually spell out that the default range for "provokes an opporunity attack" is adjacent...until you look at, say, the wording for Threatening Reach: A creature that has threatening reach can make an opportunity attack against any enemy within its reach that provokes an opportunity attack.. Which implies that the game still has a default threat range -- and that that default is still "adjacent".
Obryn
Hero
A handful of Leader powers, a few Stances, and some class/PP features.
It's a big deal for Seekers and archer rangers, but hardly anyone else.
-O
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