May Rules Update

[Garthanos]

Absolutley.

However, some of us will need to keeping buying them otherwise they'll cease to be! There's only so long Magic and other products can prop up the D&D product if sales plummet. Do masses of errata suck (in a keeping track of things way, not in a keeping the game playable way)? Yes. Does having no new D&D suck more? I personaly think so!

I like books reading them is relaxing the art is softer and more portable even than my wifes lap top computer.(I had to put the last word on it it was more than a little necessary).

 

[renau1g]

I assume you meant to suggest that my DM and I could jointly decide to ignore that part of the errata. As our DM has a policy of NOT ignoring errata, that's not an option.

Yes I meant your group actually, not even just you and the DM, as if the group had major opposition to allowing it then he/she (DM) shouldn't allow it. I think the change has less to do with the SM, but instead with arcane strikers, at least that's what the errata says.

 

[Garthanos]

Because Throw and Stab was better than Twin Strike.*

While I think we can all agree that Twin Strike is basically at the apex of At-Will powers, I think we can also agree that any At-Will that's better than Twin Strike is particularly problematic.

-O


(*especially when combined with Marauder's Rush and the various Chargemania items and feats )

Ah I will admit to not having paid that close of attention to T&S.. it sounded a flavorful alternative to Twin Strike. But we havent built a ranger recently. Charges are very boosted variously arent they.

 

[MrMyth]

See, as a Hybrid (that counts as both classes) can only take one chosen PP. A monk/rogue wielding a dagger will not benefit from daggermaster, at least not as often. So why to take a PP that's only useful with half (more or less) of his powers?

Well... yeah. If you are a monk/rogue, and aren't focused on the use of rogue dagger powers, then daggermaster isn't the best choice. You have plenty of other PP options available. And you certainly can focus to a large extent, having 3/4 of your encounter and daily powers work with it. Having one at-will, one encounter, and one daily power that don't work with it isn't going to cripple the character.

As it is right now, the option remains open to multiclass and hybrid characters while being reduced in potency for them. Your suggestion would leave it full power for hybrids, and remove it entirely for multiclassing. I don't see that as an especially good approach - it leaves open more potential for abuse while simultaneously restricting more casual use. I much prefer the direction they have chosen, myself.

 

[Obergnom]

hmm, personaly, I could not care less for most of the power and feat changes, as we have a group policy of 'playing nice' ... but I really like what they did to the rules themselves... new fly rules, changes to some skills and I really like the new Aid Another rule.

I am looking forward to september, while we will not use the Essentials line in our group, the Rules Compendium combined with the Char Builder seems to give us some kind of D&D 4.5 ...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Ah I will admit to not having paid that close of attention to T&S.. it sounded a flavorful alternative to Twin Strike. But we havent built a ranger recently. Charges are very boosted variously arent they.

It went beyond that even. A hybrid ranger could use the power to effectively combine functions of two classes in ways that weren't really intended.

For example you could T&S, whack the enemy with your thrown weapon and take HQ damage on them, then charge them and drop a fighter power on them via charge substitution and mark the target (on top of whatever ungodly amount of charge damage you could do). This basically made hybrids between ranger and many defender classes markedly superior to single classed characters of EITHER of the two classes in question.

As it is now you can still hit a target for HQ damage and mark another target (if you can use a power of your defender class as an MBA), but you can't pile it on top of the same target at least. Combined with the loss of all the charge buffs the power is now at least not astronomically better than any other at-will in the game for certain builds.

There is one hidden benefit to the change though, since the second half of the power is no longer a charge you can effectively move anywhere you want to with it and as I read it you really don't HAVE to go after the secondary target, you could just toss your thrown weapon and run away, or you could move behind the secondary target etc such as to gain flanking or for other tactical reasons. This is no way going to make up for the nerf, but it does suggest some more interesting ways to use T&S that are probably more fun overall.

Gotta say, I really like the Healer's Lore change too. Surgeless healing was a little bit too easy to crank up to crazy levels. I think CLW being hit by this was sort of collateral damage though since basically it was pretty close to worthless already with Astral Seal around. Now its truly useless. Maybe they'll errata back in the HL bonus specifically for that power in a later update or do something else for it. The concept of CLW was good. I even recall back in the early days of the game it saw some use.

 

[MrMyth]

I'm not entirely keen on the new take on Aid Another. It needed to be done (at 14th level, my Jack of All Trades wizard was incapable of failing an Aid Another check on any skill), but scaling it to character level doesn't feel right to me. I'd have much preferred to see it scaled to the difficulty of the skill check.

My group has experimented with some different Aid Another rules recently, and what we settled on was tying it to the skill check of the player being aided. The DC is his normal skill check bonus. If you succeed, you give a +1 bonus on the check. Succeed by 10, and it becomes the normal +2.

Thus, everyone usually has a chance to somewhat contribute, but the better someone is to start, the less chance everyone can easily boost his bonus through the roof.

 

[Kingreaper]

Gotta say, I really like the Healer's Lore change too. Surgeless healing was a little bit too easy to crank up to crazy levels. I think CLW being hit by this was sort of collateral damage though since basically it was pretty close to worthless already with Astral Seal around.

Cure light wounds says you regain hit points as though you spent a healing surge.

Had you spent a healing surge, healer's lore would apply.

So, you can make an argument (probably technically incorrect, but pretty close, and pretty reasonable) that Healer's Lore applies to CLW.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

@ throw and stab: seems a little bit on the weak side nwo, but should still be a very useful power to get rid of some minions etc...

I made a goliath ranger who used a farbond spellblade greatsword, plate mail, an amulet that prevented OAs from charge movement, and a horned helm (plus a couple of other things). That character established nicely that the nerf on throw and stab was needed.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

Is a mellee basic attack a rogue power ?

No, it's a rouge power.