Ogre Mage - CR 8?

[Great Guru]

I read that Mearls article. Good stuff. Followed the linky to the Noonan "Proud Nails" article. The guy can't take halfling and gnome combatants seriously based on observing a 2-year old child? How about a chimpanzee? Those things are literally strong enough to beat you to death and rip off your face.

 

[Vigilance]

If an ogre mage only warrants a CR 8 if he's outside, flying, invisible, and gets off his Cone of Cold against the whole group he's not a CR 8 at all. The creature's ideal attack scenario isn't always going to happen for it.

Right, which is why CRs are not 100% accurate all the time. Circumstances come into play.

However, you need to keep in mind that against a 5th level party, there is a chance that an Ogre Mage can TPK them with one spell.

In Mearls' CR 5 version of the Ogre, you'll note that he removes the cone of cold and reduces the invisibility to 3/day and removes the regeneration.

That's a fairly significant weakening of the monster imo, which leads me to believe that maybe the CR isn't all that off.

In fact, I don't actually think Mearls ever says the CR for the Ogre Mage is wrong. When he says its "too high" he means "too high for them to work with ogres", which is something he thinks would make them cooler (I agree btw).

I'm thinking CR 5 or 6. A 5th or 6th level party has access to Fly, See Invisibility, and Melf's Acid Arrow. If the DM allows it there's the whole line of Orb spells available which pretty much negates the SR advantage (which is why IMC I made them all evocations allowing SR).

I'd agree with you but for that 1/day 9d6 damage cone of cold with a save DC of 18.

It really skews the whole design and I've never really liked it (that goes all the way back to at least 1st edition btw).

 

[Great Guru]

The Cone of Cold can be lethal if it catches the whole party and if they all miss their saving throws. After that, assuming at least some of the party makes their saves (the rogue probably making it and not taking damage at all) the party can react and do damage control (i.e. potions or spells of healing).

I've decided on CR 6 for my campaign, given the ogre mage one more Hit Die, and of course they only change shape now instead of polymorph as in pre-errata 3.5.

 

[Great Guru]

Compare my CR 6 ogre mage with the CR 5 very young red dragon in 3.5 MM. I think that dragon is probably more lethal - again depending on the circumstances of the encounter.

Other CR 6 monsters include the annis hag, babau, lamia, and wyvern. I think this version of the ogre mage compares favorably with those creatures.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Compare my CR 6 ogre mage with the CR 5 very young red dragon in 3.5 MM. I think that dragon is probably more lethal -

Yeah, but all the dragons are underrated for CR. That's because they were meant to be the elites or solos or a game that didn't allow for either concept in it's monster design.

 

[coyote6]

I think the last time I used an ogre mage, I upgraded it -- added a couple of hit dice, IIRC -- without changing its CR. I agree that its combination of abilities make it hard to lower its CR, without turning it into a TPK Monster. Yet it's HD mean that once the party has the ability to take a shot from the cone of cold, and counter the invisibility, it's effectiveness falls way off. So, adding a couple of hit dice seemed to work, at least for me.

In effect, the ogre mage is one of a number of monsters that seems to have a step CR -- against PCs of a certain range of levels, it functions as CR X -- that is, it is about as dangerous to the PCs as other monsters of CR X. But once the PCs are a higher level, it becomes less of a threat than other CR X monsters, and its CR is then somewhat overblown.

It's kind of an eggshells-with-hammers thing.

 

[pawsplay]

I used one of these guys, and IME Mearls was just way off. These guys are tough. The way it played out with my group, you had an invisible guy with a glaive attacking. When they finally cornered him, he took a step back and blasted them all at the same time with Cone of Cold. While they were healing, he grappled the wizard. It was the second-closest thing to a TPK in my campaign (number one was the premature attack on the ancient blue dragon). ... And that was with the ogre mage being alone and indoors, far from an ideal situation for the monster.

Then you have to consider what happens when you advance him with class levels. Adding two levels of rogue makes him, in theory, CR 9, and now you have an invisible sneak attacking dude with evasion.

 

[Dandu]

Will save of +3 means that the Orge Mage attacks, gets blinded by Glitterdust, and is swiftly ganked by the fighter.

 

[pawsplay]

First the party has to figure out where the ogre mage is in order to glitterdust. Then the ogre mage has to fail its save, which depending on the character we can count on being between 15 and 16, not a sure thing at all. Further, even while blinded, the ogre mage is no slouch. He can still fly out of reach. In fact, he can cast darkness, equalizing the situation.

Now, against a party of well-armed fighter-mages armed to the teeth with glitterdust and magic missiles, the ogre mage is going to be in trouble, but against a more conventional party, he is significantly threatening. Against a high level party, the low Will save is more of an issue.

CR 6 was put forward as a good benchmark. Well, I'm picturing a 6th level party, and I frankly doubt they are going to fully prepared for an invisible, flying foe that can melee and has a very nasty cone attack. At that level, they could literally run out of glitterdusts before they ever found him. If the fighter closes, the ogre mage is not likely to offer a full attack. And with a +12 grapple modifier, what's to stop him from pinning a 6th level fighter, flying straight up in the air, and dropping him?

An argument could be made for CR 7.

 

[Dandu]

First the party has to figure out where the ogre mage is in order to glitterdust.

Fortunately, Spot and Listen allow you to notice and pinpoint invisible creatures, respectively.

Then the ogre mage has to fail its save, which depending on the character we can count on being between 15 and 16, not a sure thing at all.

It's a 70-75% chance of the Orge Mage sucking due to the first spell cast. I call that pretty good.

Further, even while blinded, the ogre mage is no slouch. He can still fly out of reach.

And is no threat to anyone if he's retreating.

In fact, he can cast darkness, equalizing the situation.

I cast Magic Missile at your Darkness.

Now, against a party of well-armed fighter-mages armed to the teeth with glitterdust and magic missiles, the ogre mage is going to be in trouble, but against a more conventional party, he is significantly threatening. Against a high level party, the low Will save is more of an issue.

Round 1: Rogue notices something and marks the area for the wizard to glitterdust (say, by running up to it, or shooting in the square) Wizard does so. Ogre Mage is revealed and has a 70-75% chance of being blinded.
Round 2: Orge Mage either tries to escape or Cones of Cold the party. In the first case, the Orge's efficacy is diminished. In the second, he's marked and will be subject to attacks. Wizard can cast Glitterdust again for another 70-75% chance to blind it if necessary. (Admittedly, a good Cone of Cold could take out the party wizard because wizards don't have a great deal of HP).
Round 3: ???
Round 4: Profit.

Now, unless parties with Rogues who have invested in Spot and Listen, along with Wizards who use Glitterdust, are now "high powered parties", I think we can consider your point disproven.

CR 6 was put forward as a good benchmark. Well, I'm picturing a 6th level party, and I frankly doubt they are going to fully prepared for an invisible, flying foe that can melee and has a very nasty cone attack.

Unless they have anyone with a decent listen check (Ranger, Rogue, Barbarian, Druid).

At that level, they could literally run out of glitterdusts before they ever found him.

How fortunate it is that we can find out which squares invisible creatures are in without resorting to random blasting.

If the fighter closes, the ogre mage is not likely to offer a full attack. And with a +12 grapple modifier, what's to stop him from pinning a 6th level fighter, flying straight up in the air, and dropping him?

1. It provokes an Attack of Opportunity from the Fighter because it does not have the feat Improved Grapple.
2. The fighter will have a +10 grapple modifier from strength and BAB, which means the orge mage has a 60% chance of success. This is lower than the 70-75% chance of it resisting Glitterdust.
3. It has to initiate grapple the first round, and then pin in the second. This means it can be sneak attacked in the meantime by the Rogue.
4. Opposed grapple checks to move. Again, 60% chance of success.
5. Wizard casting Grease or Enlarge Person on the Fighter. Grease helps him escape, Enlarge Person gives him a +4 bonus to grapple... which makes his total bonus +14.
6. The cleric can force a will save vs Bestow Curse, Hold Person, etc. This would be bad for the Orge Mage.
7. You move at half your speed when grappling after winning the opposed roll. Ascending also forces you to move at half speed. This means in one round, the Orge Mage can move up and drop the fighter... 10 feet. This deals 1d6 damage. Using two rounds to pursue an attack that is unlikely to work, provoking several attacks of opportunities, all in order to deal 1d6 damage does not strike me as impressive.