New character: Avenger (I admit I have doubts...)

[darjr]

I've killed an avenger. The player did his job too. The cleric did not.

 

[TarionzCousin]

I am playing an Avenger in a 4E game and I am loving it--primarily because rolling two d20's to hit is a beautiful thing. I rarely miss, and if I do miss with a Daily Power, I add 1d6 (Deva racial encounter power) with a minimum of +3 (Deva racial feat) resulting in a hit every time so far.

Ahhhhh.

 

[Iron Sky]

Iron Sky, looking at your example now, seems pretty nice indeed.

PS: I believe will be a low level game, probably level 1.

I figured as much, just thought I'd give you a short progression for a little idea of what it would like like down the road. When I make a new character, I usually look at where they'll be by level 4. If I get a chance to play that character, then I do a quick level 10 version to figure out heroic progression...

 

[Dr_Sage]

I figured as much, just thought I'd give you a short progression for a little idea of what it would like like down the road. When I make a new character, I usually look at where they'll be by level 4. If I get a chance to play that character, then I do a quick level 10 version to figure out heroic progression...

I agree. I do the same.

I was just answering Sigfile question.

Thx again!

 

[Antronach]

I keep re reading this over and over and over. Why would a character that can do all this need a party?

Edit: I want to actually try to be constructive here:

The way i built this character was a hybrid avenger rogue. With a heavy emphasis on powers that let you move people around and chase people down. This character is nowhere near optimized, but still does either solid damage with rogue at wills, or reliable damage and effects with avenger at wills. It's really hard to build a jack of all trade character without access to a bard. But the avenger requirement means i'd have to go wis/cha which would leave him severely lacking in the physical department.
If cares I'll post the character.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

I keep re reading this over and over and over. Why would a character that can do all this need a party?

Simple. Being "good" at a lot of stuff doesn't mean you're the "best" at all those things. Let's take a look, shall we?

High AC: Sure, you can get AC equivalent to Plate Heavy Shield with two feats. A Paladin can have that out of the box with zero feats, and a Fighter only needs the single Plate Armor Proficiency feat. Additionally, the Fighter and the Paladin have access to more armor enchantments, as well as armor specialization feats that further increase their AC beyond what the Avenger can get. And on top of that, at least as far as the Fighter is concerned, they have access to things like stances, powers and paragon path/epic destiny abilities that can send it even higher either permanently, or on a temporary basis.

High HP: Yes, in terms of base HP the Avenger is 1 HP behind the Fighter, and they get the same amount per level. In theory, they have "Defender level HP". In practice though, things are different. If you're going DEX/WIS, then your CON will be low. This means that your starting HP is lower, and you have fewer surges (when you're already down 2 to start with). Plus, Wardens have both a higher starting HP value in addition to getting more HP per level...and they have a CON based build, which makes the disparity even higher.

High Skills: While the Avenger might be stealthy, even a Dragon Magic Sorcerer with no skill training in Athletic will almost undoubtedly have a higher Athletics...even if the Avenger takes skill training and skill focus (with both it would be close when it comes up to Epic). Any STR-based class will easily outpace an Avenger in that skill once you factor in training/focus and/or backgrounds. So, while they would be rivalling the Clerics of the world in terms of perception, they aren't great at every skill in the game...just some of the more useful ones.

Then there's other things like ally buffs, controller effects, action denial, marking mechanics, damage output and a whole host of other factors that other specialists are much better at. The Avenger is well rounded, but he doesn't obsolete the rest of the party in any way.

 

[Obryn]

I keep re reading this over and over and over. Why would a character that can do all this need a party?

Because he's not the best at any of these things.

Avengers are solid Fifth Characters. They can also work great in a party that needs both a Striker and a Defender.

-O

 

[Samir]

Simple. Being "good" at a lot of stuff doesn't mean you're the "best" at all those things. Let's take a look, shall we?

High AC: Sure, you can get AC equivalent to Plate Heavy Shield with two feats. A Paladin can have that out of the box with zero feats, and a Fighter only needs the single Plate Armor Proficiency feat. Additionally, the Fighter and the Paladin have access to more armor enchantments, as well as armor specialization feats that further increase their AC beyond what the Avenger can get. And on top of that, at least as far as the Fighter is concerned, they have access to things like stances, powers and paragon path/epic destiny abilities that can send it even higher either permanently, or on a temporary basis.

Since one of the two Avenger AC feats is a scaling bonus, it keeps them at plate + heavy shield levels even with Armor Specialization taken into account.

Fighter stances, powers, and PPs are what give them the edge, for sure.

There is also the benefit of having heavy shield-level AC while still being able to wield a two-handed weapon.

High HP: Yes, in terms of base HP the Avenger is 1 HP behind the Fighter, and they get the same amount per level. In theory, they have "Defender level HP". In practice though, things are different. If you're going DEX/WIS, then your CON will be low. This means that your starting HP is lower, and you have fewer surges (when you're already down 2 to start with). Plus, Wardens have both a higher starting HP value in addition to getting more HP per level...and they have a CON based build, which makes the disparity even higher.

Yes. Avengers have high HP for a striker--1 less than a Barbarian--but aren't a Con-class, so they will end up with less than a Con-based Barbarian or a Con-based defender (or, of course, a Warden).

High Skills: While the Avenger might be stealthy, even a Dragon Magic Sorcerer with no skill training in Athletic will almost undoubtedly have a higher Athletics...even if the Avenger takes skill training and skill focus (with both it would be close when it comes up to Epic). Any STR-based class will easily outpace an Avenger in that skill once you factor in training/focus and/or backgrounds. So, while they would be rivalling the Clerics of the world in terms of perception, they aren't great at every skill in the game...just some of the more useful ones.

Not to mention they only get to pick 3 skills at character creation, plus Religion as a freebie.

An Avenger with 12 strength (a common score for fighter MC in Paragon), Athletics training, and Power of Skill (replaces Melee Training and gives +1 to trained skills, pretty much a feat tax) will certainly have a higher skill than a Dragon Magic Sorcerer without the skill, until epic.

Then there's other things like ally buffs, controller effects, action denial, marking mechanics, damage output and a whole host of other factors that other specialists are much better at. The Avenger is well rounded, but he doesn't obsolete the rest of the party in any way.

This. Also, an Avenger needs a party to enable his striker feature, which doesn't function if you're adjacent to more than 1 enemy. The class is built around isolating individual targets and taking them down one by one. Obviously that makes it not very useful for when you're surrounded, which you would be without a party.

This is also the reason Avenger defenses are so high; because typically you're taking on monsters one-on-one and you may not have a defender to protect you.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Since one of the two Avenger AC feats is a scaling bonus, it keeps them at plate + heavy shield levels even with Armor Specialization taken into account.

Fighter stances, powers, and PPs are what give them the edge, for sure.

There is also the benefit of having heavy shield-level AC while still being able to wield a two-handed weapon.

Oh, I must've done the math wrong. I thought Plate Spec edged out, but I guess not. Even still though, as you noted, the extras that Defenders get will give them the edge. And taking an ED like Adamantine Warrior usually puts them permanently ahead of everyone else...or at the least even, but allowing them to use the Resist 5 All Plate armor.

Using the two-handed weapon though is what makes them a Striker, but they don't get the bump to Reflex (and if the Defender took Shield Spec then he'll be getting a 3 point bump). I'm not saying that their AC sucks though, just that they're not invincible and that it can be equaled.

Not to mention they only get to pick 3 skills at character creation, plus Religion as a freebie.

An Avenger with 12 strength (a common score for fighter MC in Paragon), Athletics training, and Power of Skill (replaces Melee Training and gives +1 to trained skills, pretty much a feat tax) will certainly have a higher skill than a Dragon Magic Sorcerer without the skill, until epic.

Well, the untrained Dragon Magic Sorcerer was meant to be an example of when they top out...namely, in epic. The point was more that while the Avenger might be decent at it, even a class that's not a "traditionally" athletic sort will eventually beat them through stat increases. Once you throw in someone actually taking skill training and/or focus, they easily get left in the dust. And they can't compete on some of the other skills either, like Endurance. Plus, if you're talking about a WIS/DEX build, then they're going to be weak in social skills (CHA based), and even that Religion freebie won't be that great since they won't have a very high INT.

IOW, they can't be great at every skill, or even best at most of them. They just happen to synergize very well with some of the more useful ones, like Stealth and Perception.

This. Also, an Avenger needs a party to enable his striker feature, which doesn't function if you're adjacent to more than 1 enemy. The class is built around isolating individual targets and taking them down one by one. Obviously that makes it not very useful for when you're surrounded, which you would be without a party.

This is also the reason Avenger defenses are so high; because typically you're taking on monsters one-on-one and you may not have a defender to protect you.

Yep. As with all the classes in 4e, they need a party in order to function optimally.

 

[Puggins]

I agree with most of what people say above, except the bit about the fullblade- go Mordenkrad. The advantage of the full blade over the Mordenkrad- the +1 attack bonus- is nowhere near as useful for an avenger as it is for a barbarian, warlord or fighter. The extra damage per attack will be really useful.

I do have one observation, though- avengers tend to be poorly served by a small party size. Get two enemies next two you (which tends to happen more often in small parties) and your oath of enmity becomes moot.

Alternatively, I'd recommend a dex/wis monk using a weapon as a focus (if you really want to use a weapon). Since the monk can use a smaller weapon as a focus (say a spear), it might be more suited for your sensibilities. Also, the monk mixes in some excellent area attacks that will really help a small party.