Ogre Mage - CR 8?

[Dandu]

Note that this ogre mage differs in a key way from the standard MM version: he's got a glaive, giving him a really long reach. Long reach + flight can be brutal. If the ceiling is tall enough, that right there would be vicious -- hover 20 ft off the ground, far out of reach of most everyone (you'd need to be flying, spider climbing, levitating, or enlarged w/a reach weapon)

What happened to archery?

 

[pawsplay]

Spot is a flat DC 20 to notice an invisible creature (DC 30 if he's holding very still). You can get a spot modifier of 9 ranks+5 (2,500 gp item) for a +14 spot modifier before anything else comes into play.

While the +5 item and the maxed ranks is reasonable, I would not think it's assumed at 6th level. I'm not even sure what premade items exist grant a Spot bonus.

Listen vs Move Silently to notice the general direction of the sounds an invisible creature makes. Beat the DC by 20 and you can pinpoint it. 9 ranks gives a +9 modifier vs the Orge Mage's move silently modifier of +0.

But to succeed, you first have to be close enough.

Yes, and fighters with reach weapons are so rare. You still haven't addressed the problem of the fighter having a comperable grapple modifier which makes grappling difficult.

A four point advantage in the ogre mage's favor is pretty good.

Why would the mage ever include party members in the area of Glitterdust in the first place? Surely a man as intelligent as Einstein would know not to do such a thing? When you resort to such petty nit picking to defend your position, could it be a sign that your position is tenuous?

Why would an ogre mage who is invisible do anything OTHER than stroll casually right into the middle of the party, not adjacent to the rogue with the maxed out Listen skill, but instead adjacent at an unknown location next to the easily grappled wizard who does not have a maxed out Listen skill?
The mage would not purposefully include party members in the area of glitterdust, which means the ogre mage can purposefully stand near the party when it's safe to do so.

Now imagine the ogre mage readying cone of cold to cast if the mage casts any spell at all. Hilarity ensues. No glitterdust, possibly no mage, no full attack from the fighter. Maybe the rogue can flank him.

 

[pawsplay]

What happened to archery?

Invisible guys sundering bows springs to mind, but archery is definitely an option I would implement, if I could see my foe.

 

[Dandu]

Invisible guys sundering bows springs to mind

Backup bows spring to mind.

 

[Dandu]

While the +5 item and the maxed ranks is reasonable, I would not think it's assumed at 6th level. I'm not even sure what premade items exist grant a Spot bonus.

Eyes of the Eagle from the PHB

But to succeed, you first have to be close enough.

To be a threat, the Ogre Mage has to be close by.

A four point advantage in the ogre mage's favor is pretty good.

Last time I checked, 12 - 10 = 2
I have a question. How can you consider the 60% chance of success on a grapple check from the Ogre Mage vs the fighter good, while considering the 70-75% chance of success from the wizard casting Glitterdust bad?

Why would an ogre mage who is invisible do anything OTHER than stroll casually right into the middle of the party, not adjacent to the rogue with the maxed out Listen skill, but instead adjacent at an unknown location next to the easily grappled wizard who does not have a maxed out Listen skill?

Grappling the wizard means you are denied Dex to AC, lose invisiblity, and can be sneak attacked by the rogue and murdered by the fighter. Cleric will either cast a spell on you or bring out a mace. Furthermore, when the Ogre Mage starts the grapple, he spends his first round establishing a grapple and he can't deal damage until his second round.

Also, there are several familiars with spot, listen, blindsense, and scent which may make sneaking up on the wizard harder than it sounds.

The mage would not purposefully include party members in the area of glitterdust, which means the ogre mage can purposefully stand near the party when it's safe to do so.

Ogre mage occupies a 10 ft square. Glitterdust affects a 10 ft square.

If the Ogre Mage simply stood next to someone, the Wizard would just have to keep a 5 ft distance between the edge of the Glitterdust spell and the character.

Now imagine the ogre mage readying cone of cold to cast if the mage casts any spell at all. Hilarity ensues. No glitterdust, possibly no mage, no full attack from the fighter. Maybe the rogue can flank him.

I'm imagining. Wizards can cast Glitterdust more than once a day. Ogres mages can only cast Cone of Cold once per day. Do you see where I am going with this?

If you kill/knock out the wizard with the Cone of Cold, things get tougher for the party. Unless the Rogue has a sack of flour, Enlarge Person, or Faerie Fire.

 

[Runestar]

My wizard with scorching burst (the reserve feat from complete mage) says hi.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

My wizard with scorching burst (the reserve feat from complete mage) says hi.

It's Fiery Burst. And what's that have to do with anything?

 

[Runestar]

It's Fiery Burst. And what's that have to do with anything?

Just noting how easily it deals with the ogre mage. You don't need to expend any resources, AoE ignores invisibility, punches through sr being an SU ability, and low damage is offset somewhat by the ogre mage having so little hp to begin with.

 

[Dandu]

Dealing damage to it really isn't the issue, as much as pawsplay tries to make it one. Finding it is.

 

[pawsplay]

Last time I checked, 12 - 10 = 2

I have a question. How can you consider the 60% chance of success on a grapple check from the Ogre Mage vs the fighter good, while considering the 70-75% chance of success from the wizard casting Glitterdust bad?

It's not great. However, grappling is an unlimited resource, albeit one with a risk associated with it, whereas glitterdust is finite. Further, the ogre mage is only going to grapple when it's optimal to do so, whereas a 6th-8th level party is going to need to hit the ogre mage with Glitterdust before they can be very effective. And the consequences of being grappled and dropped from a great height are quite dire... if the ogre mage gets you, you can get away with light falling damage if you escape the first round, but but it gets rapidly worse after that.

Grappling the wizard means you are denied Dex to AC, lose invisiblity, and can be sneak attacked by the rogue and murdered by the fighter. Cleric will either cast a spell on you or bring out a mace. Furthermore, when the Ogre Mage starts the grapple, he spends his first round establishing a grapple and he can't deal damage until his second round.

Sure... but he's got the wizard. A CR 8 monster versus a level 8 party is supposed to consume 25% of their resources, so if he simply kills the wizard, he's done his job. The ogre mage doesn't have to win this one to justify his CR, he just has to cause some hurt.

Ogre mage occupies a 10 ft square. Glitterdust affects a 10 ft square.

If the Ogre Mage simply stood next to someone, the Wizard would just have to keep a 5 ft distance between the edge of the Glitterdust spell and the character.

Sure. But it makes for a harder game of battleship.

I'm imagining. Wizards can cast Glitterdust more than once a day. Ogres mages can only cast Cone of Cold once per day. Do you see where I am going with this?

Wizards would have to specifically prepare an "all Glitterdust all the time" strategy in order to be extremely effective in this scenario, or carry scrolls? Sorry, that's my best guess. Of course, a sorcerer might be really handy in this scenario, but they may versatility problems.

If you kill/knock out the wizard with the Cone of Cold, things get tougher for the party. Unless the Rogue has a sack of flour, Enlarge Person, or Faerie Fire.

The ogre mage's low hit points are its biggest weakness, but I don't think the rogue is out of the woods just by being able to pinpoint its square.