Ogre Mage - CR 8?

[Dandu]

Seems the standards for qualifying as a Theoretical Internet Wizard get lower every year.

Standard's the same as it always has been. If it makes the other person's argument look bad, you play the card.

Though I wouldn't cast it from a scroll, seeing how the DC caps at a crummy 13.

Wizards. They can craft their own scrolls.

 

[Runestar]

Standard's the same as it always has been. If it makes the other person's argument look bad, you play the card.

I meant as in the wizard in question being played. I thought it was reserved solely for wizards who somehow always had the perfect spell in reserve, however esoteric or scenario-specific. Now, it is applicable even to wizards who prep glitterdust and are able to access see invis somehow (2 very common spells no wizard in my games are ever without). Next thing you know, the wizard simply needs to prep magic missiles and fireballs to qualify as an internet wizard.

Wizards. They can craft their own scrolls.

Even then, I would usually reserve this for spells which do not rely on DCs and/or have a fairly duration at minimum caster lv, so as to drive the price down. So yes to buffs such as mage armour, scorching ray or haste. No to debuffs like sleep (DC11?!?) or ray of enfeeblement (which needs a fairly high caster lv to be effective).

 

[Dandu]

Even if the DC for Glitterdust was lower for a scroll the mage crafted himself, it would still have the revealing effect.

 

[Uder]

The ogre mage should be CR7 as-is, and many of the suggestions for changes here and in Mearl's article have merit.

Standard's the same as it always has been. If it makes the other person's argument look bad, you play the card.

It bugs me that somebody brings up a fair point (they are tough in situation X) only to get shouted down with "It's called situation Y, BZZAAP!" It's the opposite of conversation.

I guess a better term would be "drive-by optimizer,"... someone who assumes the best possible counter to any given situation will always be available.

Yes, if your party has access to see invis, fiery burst, glitterdust, orb of fire, eyes of the eagle, and a metamagic rod, then an ogre mage is even less of a challenge than its normally too-high CR would suggest.

Not all players that play wizards memorize what you think are automatic choices. Not even all player that optimize builds do this. At 8th level, the spells given above are a fair bit of a wizard's firepower, just for what amounts to an EL6 or EL7 encounter. For 4th-5th level characters, where the ogre mage and a single low-CR lackey make a good miniboss encounter, it's wishful thinking.

 

[Dandu]

The ogre mage should be CR7 as-is

Isn't the Ogre Mage a CR 8?

It bugs me that somebody brings up a fair point (they are tough in situation X) only to get shouted down with "It's called situation Y, BZZAAP!" It's the opposite of conversation.

I'll be sure to lose some sleep over it.

I guess a better term would be "drive-by optimizer,"... someone who assumes the best possible counter to any given situation will always be available.

Glitterdust isn't the best possible counter to the given situation. It is, however, a counter to the situation that I often see wizards prepare.

Best possible counter is to cast "Summon Mirror Mephit", use its SLA of Simalicrum to create a Solar, and have the Solar beat up the Ogre Mage.

Well, no, that's still not quite as much overkill as possible...

Yes, if your party has access to see invis, fiery burst, glitterdust, orb of fire, eyes of the eagle, and a metamagic rod, then an ogre mage is even less of a challenge than its normally too-high CR would suggest.

Are you confusing me with someone else? I never suggested that the party would have access to reserve feats such as Fiery Burst, and I don't believe I said the wizard would have See Invisibility either. I stuck with Glitterdust and Eyes of the Eagle. A cheap metamagic rod was mentioned as a way to make Glitterdust last longer, but it wasn't critical. I don't believe Orb of Fire was mentioned more than once by myself in a side discussion of how to deal with the Ogre Mage's SR.

Not all players that play wizards memorize what you think are automatic choices. Not even all player that optimize builds do this.

Some people play wizards with an Int score below 10. Some people spend their time learning useless spells like Tenser's Transformation. I choose to assume that the average player is not an idiot and will make reasonable choices.

At 8th level, the spells given above are a fair bit of a wizard's firepower, just for what amounts to an EL6 or EL7 encounter.

Two Glitterdust spells is not a "fair bit" of a wizard's firepower.

Also, Fiery Burst is an at-will reserve feat, Eyes of the Eagle is an wondrous item, and a metamagic rod is a rod, not a spell.

For 4th-5th level characters, where the ogre mage and a single low-CR lackey make a good miniboss encounter, it's wishful thinking.

I do not believe anyone has been talking about 4-5th level characters, at least not recently.

 

[Runestar]

Not all players that play wizards memorize what you think are automatic choices. Not even all player that optimize builds do this. At 8th level, the spells given above are a fair bit of a wizard's firepower, just for what amounts to an EL6 or EL7 encounter. For 4th-5th level characters, where the ogre mage and a single low-CR lackey make a good miniboss encounter, it's wishful thinking.

On the flip side, I would think it rare that a wizard somehow ends up preparing spells which are wholly unsuited to fighting an ogre mage at all.

Perhaps you can provide an example of what an "unlucky" wizard might have prepared?

 

[Dandu]

On the flip side, I would think it rare that a wizard somehow ends up preparing spells which are wholly unsuited to fighting an ogre mage at all.

Perhaps you can provide an example of what an "unlucky" wizard might have prepared?

Naught but Tenser's Floating Disk and True Strike. And Extended Tenser's Floating Disk. And Empowered Floating Disk.

 

[pawsplay]

I do not believe anyone has been talking aobut 4-5th level characters,a t least not recently.

I'm pretty sure all examples so far have been a four person party of 6th or 8th level, depending on whether the ogre mage was being a "challenging" or "standard" encounter in that particular example.

 

[pawsplay]

On the flip side, I would think it rare that a wizard somehow ends up preparing spells which are wholly unsuited to fighting an ogre mage at all.

Perhaps you can provide an example of what an "unlucky" wizard might have prepared?

Well, they'd be pretty sorry if they were heavy on summon monsters, haste, and ground-based area spells.

 

[Dandu]

Actually, a summoning focused wizard would be able to cast Summon Monster III and get a Fiendish Dire Bat with DR5/magic, Resist Cold and Fire 5, Flying, Blindsense 40 ft, and a +10 to grapple.

Or a Celestial Hippogriff with Resist Cold 5, Scent, Flying, and +11 to grapple.