The Plane Above - the Glorantha-fication of D&D?

[Bluenose]

Most of the RQ2 books were reprinted in large "telephone book" reprintings. They are somewhat expensive due to size (retail varied from $60-$80) but that is still a great deal compared to the size of the reprints. They are also still somewhat available.

In fact, Steve Jackson Games (I believe the official distributor of the Heroquest print products) has hardcover copies of the Cult Compendium (every cult write-up written for RQ2) and seems to be getting in more of the Borderlands and Beyond collection (the great Borderlands campaign along with a bunch of miscellaneous books including the magic item reprints). $60 may seem steep, but these are huge hardback books.

As for Glorantha, it has a huge rich background (perhaps made a bit too rich in some later publications). IMO, the Griffin Mountain book was the best campaign area book ever published and few who have seen it can argue that Trollpack isn't the best "race book" for an RPG setting (unfortunately, Trollpack wasn't reprinted in the above reprints, but Griffin Mountain was).

I bought Borderlands and Beyond last weekend from my LGS - an excellent purchase even for someone, like me, who has the original. Depending on what exactly you want it can be argued that it's better than Griffin Mountain. There is a campaign with a story-line and adventures integral to that, as well as sufficient information to run a sandbox game in the area. I did that once with a group of players playing Agimori tribesmen living in the area when the rest of the events were going on, and that was a lot of fun.

As for Trollpak, it's unmatched, still, at least as far as race/monster books goes. I actually like the Mongoose race books too, but they aren't even close to being as in-depth.

 

[Wycen]

I like my D & D to be D & D, thank you.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The sketch of these rules in The Plane Above is just that - a two page sketch with some examples. And (given their track record with modules) I'm pretty confident that WotC won't give us a decent worked-out example any time soon.

But the rules are there. Their foundation is the whole idea of the Epic Destiny as a guaranteed aspect of play rather than a goal for which the players have to strive and which the GM has a discretion to withhold (thus the great difference from the Immortals rules in earlier D&D). But as well as the mechanics, heroquesting also needs myths that are not just background, but that tie into the current situation in the gameworld, so that epic characters have a reason to engage with them. And this is what 4e has now given D&D, as far as I am aware for the first time.

[sblock=E3 - Prince of Undeath spoiler]
Well, in E3, you get to defeat Orcus. And if you fail, the Raven Queen is dead.
[/sblock]
[sblock=Scales of War Spoiler]
In Scales of War, the players kill Tiamat. And change the world profoundly due to it.
[/sblock]

One of the Epic Destinies in Eberron will undo the Mourning!

The adventures probably leave to be desired, but there is definitely the diea that at epic tiers, you change the world. The world is not following some metaplot independent of the PCs, nor is it forever static. If you fulfill your destiny, the world can change.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Not a clue what Glorantha is (though yeah the name is familiar), but as far as bringin myth and cosmology into the forefront of a campaign, we've had that for at least two editions now (was big in 2e, and while not as emphasized perhaps in 3e, it was still there). It's not something new to 4e at all.

Do you think, that at the end of a Planescape campaign, the players can remove the Lady of Pain from power? Or that it is alluded to in the material that exists for the campaign?

I think that's a kind of thing pemerton talks about. It's not just about having myths in your background. It's interacting with them. It is effectively changing the myth. Becoming the myth.

 

[Plane Sailing]

IMO, the Griffin Mountain book was the best campaign area book ever published and few who have seen it can argue that Trollpack isn't the best "race book" for an RPG setting

I agree on both those counts. Griffin Mountain was just chock-full of little details which spawned fantastic adventures when I (and others) used it.

My only disappointment with Trollpack was that it set the bar so high that they never bothered doing anything similar with Aldryami (Elves) or Mostali (Dwarves) - although I always got the impression that Greg disliked dwarves and we wouldn't have seen anything nice for them!

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

It's too bad that the adventures written for 4E don't match up to the coolness of the flavor/background/campaign advice text in the more recent rulebooks.

Coincidentally, in the past week I've started digging into the E-series of epic-level adventures: E1 Death's Reach, E2 Kingdom of the Ghouls, and E3 Prince of Undeath. I'll be running a group through these starting this fall, after another player has finished running a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying adventure.

Have you played or even read these?

Let me summarize each for the elucidation of those unfamiliar with these works by Bruce R. Cordell, Chris Sims, Chris Tulach, and Scott Fitzgerald Gray.

I see someone ninja'd me regarding the climax while I was summarizing them, but I'll leave this as is since I discuss all three publications.

E1 Death's Reach: [sblock]The players travel through Zvomarana, the Temple of Temples, to reach Letherna, Realm of the Raven Queen. There they speak face to face with the Raven Queen herself, who tasks them with finding out why souls due her are instead held by Death's Reach. Death's Reach was a central battleground in the Dawn War between primordials and gods. The players will have to find their way through this tainted core of the Shadowfell, which is strewn with the debris of the Dawn War and where the living were not meant to tred. During this journey they discover Orcus is attempting to raise the primordial Timesus from its Reliquary to become a weapon of Orcus. In the process he has threatened the stability of the entire planar order.

The players will encounter the Raven Queen herself, an Aspect of Orcus, liches and dracoliches, the Blackstar Host and Astral Warwings, a "Beholder Death Emperor", and Orcus's exarch Arantham. Several traps will test the players and there is an artifact to be found, along with several powerful magic items.

Speaking with the god of death face-to-face, journeying to a plane of the dead where the primordials fought the gods at the dawn of time, and combating an aspect of the god of undeath and his right-hand-human is epic.
[/sblock]

If there is anything to criticize in E1, it is a railroad and some of the encounters are populated by a motley assortment of creatures (Rakshasas in Death's Reach?).

E2 Kingdom of the Ghouls: [sblock]Orcus is close to holding the weapon--a primordial in stasis--he seeks, but has not yet woken it. The adventure begins with the adventurers traveling to Sigil as they attempt to intercept the primordial before it can be used. The Ghoul King is assisting Orcus in the transport in order to curry favor and hopefully elevate his status to the new god of death once the Raven Queen is deposed.

The players will encounter angels, devils, demons, and the undead. There's a death knight, a gibbering orb that gives me bad dreams, and so many ghouls the players may never want to watch a zombie movie ever again. Of course, if they get that far, the player's have their chance to take down the Ghoul King, his pet balor, flying skull guards, and lich minions.

The landscape is literally horrifying. I'm a particular fan of the Bridge of Bones, a trap whose flavor text says "The iron-hard bone doors slam shut, and the skull face in the floor begins to spray blood in fountains that scour the ceiling", and the Ghoul King's Court of Teeth which I won't spoil.

An artifact will enable the players to easily jump between planes.

On paper this doesn't sound as epic as E1. But keep in mind that every battle is not only for the players' souls, but the souls of the entire world.[/sblock]

This adventure corrects the two major flaws of the first: there are several side quests written into the adventure so it is not as much of a railroad (and it starts in Sigil--railroad that!); and the encounters all feature creatures that make sense and are awesome.

This might be the best undead adventure ever.

E3 Prince of Undeath: [sblock]The players take control of a spelljammer, invade the palace of Orcus, travel to the bottom of the universe, and fight him to the death in the court of the Raven Queen with the fate of all souls and the existence of the world and planes as we know it hanging in the balance.

Oh, and they have to get past a primordial on the way there.
[/sblock]

That is not epic. That is ing epic. If you don't have Metallica's "Master of Puppets" or Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana" blasting on a loop during the final battle I think you are doing it wrong.

This module makes it worth pre-ordering the gargantuan Orcus mini.

If I have a problem with this adventure, it's only that some of the Abyssal creatures are too abstract and horrifying and don't have a description, picture, or mini to do them justice.

I hope I've made my point: not only do I think the published 4E adventures are cool and take advantage of the other published 4E material, but I think the E-series are some of the most epic first-party adventures ever released for any edition of D&D.

A bold claim, I know. But I honestly think these thing are great: worth your money, worth your time, and worth making 21st level characters just to run them.

 

[Doug McCrae]

That is not epic. That is ing epic. If you don't have Metallica's "Master of Puppets" or Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana" blasting on a loop during the final battle I think you are doing it wrong.

I was just thinking that the whole thing, Kingdom of Ghouls in particular, sounds ing metüll. (And I'm in the middle of reading a synopsis of Wagner's Ring Cycle, so I know ing metüll when I see it.)

 

[JeffB]

Most of the RQ2 books were reprinted in large "telephone book" reprintings. They are somewhat expensive due to size (retail varied from $60-$80) but that is still a great deal compared to the size of the reprints. They are also still somewhat available.

Yeah I got Pavis & Big Rubble when it came out from MD. I neglected to mention those (as well as Griffin Mountain, yeesh, what an oversight!) I think my softcover of P&BR was around $40 ?, IIRC. I still prefer that old boxed format though..must be the "old school gamer" in me (and the boxed sets were more useful at the table, as the "common knowledge" books for the players were easily given to them, you had the separate maps, etc etc.)

In addition to all the cool stuff mentioned here about Glorantha, probably the thing I love best is that everything may be the truth, or may be a lie- it all depends on your cult's POV and there are contradictions everywhere. Just makes thing much more interesting, and certainly opens up alot of interesting RP opportunities (though it can get REALLY confusing at times)

 

[Glyfair]

My only disappointment with Trollpack was that it set the bar so high that they never bothered doing anything similar with Aldryami (Elves) or Mostali (Dwarves) - although I always got the impression that Greg disliked dwarves and we wouldn't have seen anything nice for them!

The "Trollpak" for dwarves/mostali was an issue of Different Worlds:

The telltale sign is that Greg's first article in the issue is "Why I dislike Mostali" (essentially, "they are boring.") Steve Perrin and Sandy Petersen do Trollpak like articles as well (Sandy's being on Mostali earthsense), Perrin's is on RQ stats for Dwarf weapons (only dwarves have gunpowder on Glorantha).

 

[pemerton]

Mustrum and TikkchikFenTikktikk -- thanks for the spoilers. I had a general idea of both those adventures, but not all the details.

My scepticism was particularly about WotC being unlikely to give us a heroquesting adventure anytime soon - a heroquest is when you travel back into mythological time and, by playing out the role of one of the mythological actors (like a god or primordial) you change things in the natural world.

What I really like about the way the myths and the heroquesting is presented in The Plane Above is that it creates lots of lattitude for player choice about which way they want to take things, and which gods they will support or oppose. My hesitation about the E-series as you've described it is that it seems a bit railroady, as in a bit too reliant on the players being motivated in just the right way to make things come out as the module writer intended. Still, it's good stuff, especially (in my view) compared to Planescape.

I like the idea of that Epic Destiny you mentioned, Mustrum, because that really does give the players the choice - especially, by not choosing that destiny they seem to be implicitly condoning what could otherwise be undone (I don't know Eberron but am assuming the Mourning is a bad thing).

Do you think, that at the end of a Planescape campaign, the players can remove the Lady of Pain from power? Or that it is alluded to in the material that exists for the campaign?

I think that's a kind of thing pemerton talks about. It's not just about having myths in your background. It's interacting with them. It is effectively changing the myth. Becoming the myth.

Exactly what I meant. And heroquesting - travelling into deep myth - takes that even one step further - you change the myth by becoming the myth.