Ogre Mage - CR 8?

[Uder]

On the flip side, I would think it rare that a wizard somehow ends up preparing spells which are wholly unsuited to fighting an ogre mage at all.

Perhaps you can provide an example of what an "unlucky" wizard might have prepared?

I'm not going to stat out a full 4/4+1/3+1/3+1/2+1 progression for an 8th level wizard. Here's four of 1st-4th that are not bad choices or underpowered for your average party: Lightning Bolt. Charm Person. Minor Image. Mass Enlarge Person. I'm sure we can all imagine the rest of the spell list. They're not foolish choices, depending on the group build, but they're not specifically useful against an ogre mage - at least not in such a way that the encounter turns into a rock-paper-scissors match.

I think assuming a party is going to have a specific loadout of magic items and spells - and then debating the CR of a monster from that perspective - isn't very useful.

 

[Uder]

Isn't the Ogre Mage a CR 8?

I meant to say "An ogre mage as-is should be CR7." Forgive me, message board text isn't my main social outlet.

 

[Dandu]

I'm not going to stat out a full 4/4+1/3+1/3+1/2+1 progression for an 8th level wizard. Here's four of 1st-4th that are not bad choices or underpowered for your average party: Lightning Bolt. Charm Person. Minor Image. Mass Enlarge Person. I'm sure we can all imagine the rest of the spell list. They're not foolish choices, depending on the group build, but they're not specifically useful against an ogre mage - at least not in such a way that the encounter turns into a rock-paper-scissors match.

Actually, Mass Enlarge Person means the Fighter, Cleric, and Rogue now have the same reach as the Ogre Mage, and Charm Person might be used neutralize the threat after he reveals himself and before your party starts attacking. The horrible reflex save means that Lightening Bolt will have a significant impact.

 

[Uder]

Actually, Mass Enlarge Person means the Fighter, Cleric, and Rogue now have the same reach as the Ogre Mage, and Charm Person might be used neutralize the threat after he reveals himself and before your party starts attacking. The horrible reflex save means that Lightening Bolt will have a significant impact.

Perhaps that's why I picked them as examples of good but not too-tailored-to-be-true?

BTW, Charm Person on an ogre mage? Are we talking Pathfinder?

The Lightning Bolt from an 8th level caster has only a 50/50 chance of getting through the spell resistance ("It's called Spell Penetration, BZZZAM!" I get it). It's a good all-around spell but not a rock to the ogre mage's scissors. My point was that there are plenty of spells in the book, and many of them aren't tailored to one threat or another. I'd even broaden it - with any given untailored party, the ogre mage will be a fair CR7. If you tailor party items and spells to the fight, it shouldn't have a CR. Give an ad hoc xp award and move on.

 

[Dandu]

BTW, Charm Person on an ogre mage? Are we talking Pathfinder?

No, my mistake.

The Lightning Bolt from an 8th level caster has only a 50/50 chance of getting through the spell resistance

Not to nitpick, but it's a 55/45 chance favoring the Ogre.

("It's called Spell Penetration, BZZZAM!" I get it).

Let's take a moment away from putting words in my mouth to consider that its is a poor substitute for a valid argument.

But that being said, if you're going to continue to do it, Spell Penetration is a horrible phrase to put in my mouth, as I would use either True Casting or Assay Spell Resistance.

My point was that there are plenty of spells in the book, and many of them aren't tailored to one threat or another.

Hold on. What do you mean by "tailored"?

Mass Enlarge Person is tailored to threats involving warriors, Charm Person is tailored to humanoids, and Lightening Bolt is tailored to people with low reflex saves and the tendency to stand in a line. These spells are all tailored to one threat or another. Most spells that you'd cast in combat are.

I'd even broaden it - with any given untailored party, the ogre mage will be a fair CR7.

You do realize that this is about what I and the others have been saying, right? That the Ogre Mage is over CR'd and should be taken down a notch or two.

 

[Uder]

Mass Enlarge Person is tailored to threats involving warriors, Charm Person is tailored to humanoids, and Lightening Bolt is tailored to people with low reflex saves and the tendency to stand in a line. These spells are all tailored to one threat or another. Most spells that you'd cast in combat are.

No, they're not tailored. Something can't be tailored until you have a threat in mind. They're four spells specifically chosen because they represent a broad range of situations. Spells specifically dumped on a message board in response to why one or two people think something is worth its CR are tailored. It's a habit as old (older?) as usenet, and it bugs me. Sorry.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

But that being said, if you're going to continue to do it, Spell Penetration is a horrible phrase to put in my mouth, as I would use either True Casting or Assay Spell Resistance.

To be fair, Ogre Mage is a core monster, so some parties may not have access to those spells. And if non-core is allowed, the Ogre Mage himself is fair game to get tricked out with new options (probably with class level advancement, but as long as you adjust CR accordingly, that shouldn't affect the base argument of whether or not a non-classed Ogre Mage is at the right CR).

Nitpick aside, mostly agree with you. I'm feeling pretty comfortable labelling Ogre Mage as a very unbalanced CR 6. Depending on party setup, he's either a pushover CR 6, or a possible TPK CR 6. Which could be fixed by giving him more HD and robustness to go with a higher CR, or by removing the cone of cold and maybe some other features that can be rough for a low level party to handle and lowering his CR further.

 

[Dandu]

No, they're not tailored. Something can't be tailored until you have a threat in mind.

Lightening Bolt is an Area of Effect blasting spell that one would assume, was designed to deal with threats that had a tendency to congregate.

They're four spells specifically chosen because they represent a broad range of situations.

A broad range of situations... most of which have to do with combat.

Spells specifically dumped on a message board in response to why one or two people think something is worth its CR are tailored.

You've lost me. The spell was created before this discussion sprang into existence, so it can't have been tailored for the message board.

It's a habit as old (older?) as usenet, and it bugs me. Sorry.

Shall I get off your lawn?

 

[Uder]

Shall I get off your lawn?

Yah, that'll work.

 

[Dandu]

Let us return to considering the Ogre Mage's abilities.

1. Cone of Cold. The Ogre Mage will likely get one off and damage the party.
2. Darkness. Hinders the party, but also the Ogre Mage as well.
3. Charm Person. Somewhat useless in combat, as it grants a bonus to resist it.
4. Invisibility. Good for sneaking up and in position, but it disappears the moment he attacks and has to be cast again.
5. Gaseous Form. For escaping.
6. Flight. Useful.
7. Sleep. Useless. Unless you have a sadistic DM, you will be above level 4 when fighting this.

Tactics: Ogre Mages are noted as favoring magic over melee. Its most potent magical attack is the Cone of Cold.

I see it starting combat by spraying the party from a distance (since sneaking up won't go well due to its lack of move silently and the flat DC 20 spot check to notice invisible creatures) for 9d6 (31.5 average) damage. It is then revealed and can be attacked. How it is attacked will determine if it survives the encounter or not, but since assuming a party has specific things (Glitterdust, weapons, competence, etc) is not the way to judge CR, I'm not entirely sure how to proceed.

Thoughts on how to continue? Perhaps we could drag out a few other CR 6-8 monsters and see how they compare?