keterys
First Post
Err, why? So that missing is better than hitting?
Lolth!
- Thread starter Mouseferatu
- Start date
Err, why? So that missing is better than hitting?
No that's already the case (or so it feels sometimes). He's trying to make hitting at least as good as missing, but sometimes better. So, if a power says "Hit: Dazed (save ends); Miss: Dazed until the end of your next turn", then even if the target makes their save, they would still continue to be dazed until the end of your next turn. One way to do this would be to change the miss line to an effect line.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
No, because the other change allows immediate saves for "until end of next turn" effects
Right, the issue is two-fold.
In theory, Condition (Save Ends) is supposed to be more powerful than Condition Until the End of Your Next Turn.
In practice, however, it can be weaker in two possible ways. For one, while it has the potential to go longer, if they do make their initial save, the condition may be gone by your next turn. (So you don't benefit from any Combat Advantage or other boons it might offer you.)
For another, (Save Ends) effects have a lot more counters than ones that do not allow a save.
Thus, in order to fix the problem, one needs to make it so that enemies that can counter (Save Ends) can also counter Until the End of Your Next Turn, while also making it so there is never a circumstance in which (Save Ends) is a shorter duration than Until the End of Your Next Turn.
In theory, Condition (Save Ends) is supposed to be more powerful than Condition Until the End of Your Next Turn.
In practice, however, it can be weaker in two possible ways. For one, while it has the potential to go longer, if they do make their initial save, the condition may be gone by your next turn. (So you don't benefit from any Combat Advantage or other boons it might offer you.)
For another, (Save Ends) effects have a lot more counters than ones that do not allow a save.
Thus, in order to fix the problem, one needs to make it so that enemies that can counter (Save Ends) can also counter Until the End of Your Next Turn, while also making it so there is never a circumstance in which (Save Ends) is a shorter duration than Until the End of Your Next Turn.
Actually there is a third issue with save ends, if the monster initiative goes right after you, they get to shed the condition before any of your allies might benefit from it. In the case of conditions like -2 AC (save ends), this is a big bummer.
What's worse, the creatures you typically want to hit with save ends conditions (elites and solos) can shed those conditions easier. And if you use those conditions on standard creatures, they tend to die before the save might even matter.
Right, I think balance is key here. We want PC abilities to be useful about 65% of the time, and want a monster to be able to counter them about 35% of the time to provide the right dose of challenge. I don't know, the percentages may be tweaked, but at the very least some monsters need a few counters.
That is an absolutely terrible fix.
Honestly, solos need to be able to save against action denial effects by paragon and especially epic to maintain their challenge. That's just sort of the reality here. The fix shouldn't be so unfair or extreme though that daze and stun etc are useless. It should though provide a fair and reasonable way for a solo to prevent being completely locked down by these effects - because right now stacking them turn by turn cannot be prevented in any manner. They've become better than save ends effects because of this - there is no need to make an entirely new problem by making save ends effects just as broken.
Edit: Mengu the problem with simplistic numbers like that as applied to a solo is a solo is five monsters. A stun is therefore in an encounter removing five monsters (or 100% if it is by itself) worth of creatures from the encounter. Solos have to disproportionately deal with save ends effects and until end of next turn effects - as they are worth much more total experience overall in the encounter. Letting one power shut down the entire encounter or the majority of it is the inherent problem with solo monsters.
Edit2: For the record this "fix" if any should be targeted where it matters in either paragon or epic tier. By this point PCs have a lot of daze, stun, dominate and similar "Until end of next turn" lockdown effects. It's the cumulative effect of having about two billion of these to constantly throw on a solo ensuring it never has an action that is another part of the problem. If these effects weren't so prevelent and 4E stuck to mostly save ends effects, it wouldn't be so bad.
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UngeheuerLich
Legend
I agree that solos may need a general fix. But allowing a save for EONT conditions may be the first part.
Maybe instead of changing save end effects to last until end of next turn, you should also allow for a save for eont effects at the end of turn phase, so that they may escape. Or maybe let solos always be able to grant themselves saves as an opportunity action.
Maybe instead of changing save end effects to last until end of next turn, you should also allow for a save for eont effects at the end of turn phase, so that they may escape. Or maybe let solos always be able to grant themselves saves as an opportunity action.
If you read a few of my earlier posts, we're saying exactly the same thing. I wasn't proposing the fix as the only fix. The other part of the fix needs to be allowing a portion of creatures a save on certain conditions, whether the condition normally grants a save or not. So, we're basically beefing up both save ends conditions, so people aren't trying to miss to get the better "eont" condition, and at the same time we're trying to beef up some monsters so they get saves regardless of the condition being save ends or "eont" (such as Lolth).
I don't think such an implementation is easy or likely, but I believe it would address both some lock down frustration, and some "save ends powers = bad" perception.
Bill Hooks
First Post
Hi,
Delurking to brainstorm some possible ways to deal with stunlock, apart from outright immunity:
1. Maybe have some Interrupt powers that let a Solo convert Stun or Daze to lesser conditions, Vulnerabilities, or outright damage;
2. Give a Solo nuisance abilities that are triggered by Stun or Daze, like reactive close bursts, summoning minions or pooping dangerous terrain.
Delurking to brainstorm some possible ways to deal with stunlock, apart from outright immunity:
1. Maybe have some Interrupt powers that let a Solo convert Stun or Daze to lesser conditions, Vulnerabilities, or outright damage;
2. Give a Solo nuisance abilities that are triggered by Stun or Daze, like reactive close bursts, summoning minions or pooping dangerous terrain.
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