Using Immortals Handbook AND d20 Future

[Rikandur Azebol]

Heh. I were forcing my players to abadon HP and treat damage in Mutants&Masterminds style for a while. Initially they complained a lot. And yes, they are 4ed skeptics up to include one disliker and one hater.

U_K likes 4ed, a sentiment I, while admiring His hard work and great concepts, do not share. To me 4ed is a bit too MMORPGish.
Seen it, played it, bored with it. Thus my similiar treatment of 4ed.

Thus, why not agree to disagree ? People ... if You want 3,5 stuff from U_K jou should help Him somewhat, not whine. Unfortuantely Reality have it's Abrogate firmly aimed at U_K so don't expects Miracles happening. Make them.

As for the really important question.
T-800, without weapons CR 8-10. I imagine this guy to be nigh-unstoppable without advanced firepower. Weaker fireballs wouldn't hurt it too. With futuristic weapons it is used to ? ... holy cow. +3 CR at least.

T-1000, CR 14-16 since it is nearly indestructible. Would take multiple disintigrate spells to take down. Melting it down would take empowered & maximised firewall and irritiatingly long time, at the wery least.

T-X, meh ... easier to damage than T-1000 but clearly superior in innate weaponry. 14-18 CR i think. It's plasma gun would take out wizards easily ... and then it would start getting ugly for party.

Godzilla ... that's a monster ! I remember my wicked players transdimensional-porting it to Middle Earth campaign world. Just to get rid of it and second monster that were in a middle of sumo match in the center of some poor random city. And these fiends nicknamed it Hungrilla, for dragon-devouring habits.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Ahoy there Mr. Satan!

Yes, yes it is.

Kewl.

Vegeta was always my favourite.

All that you've said thus far merely seems like opinionated speculation.

Correct. Although I seem to recall 'we' (as in these forums) had this debate in detail about a year ago. I didn't want to dredge up the same points, though I am happy to do so.

You haven't actually said much that was anything other than opinion. 4E isn't "clearly superior" at all. That alone is pure opinion.

Correct. In my capacity as a player of D&D for 25 years and a game designer for about 10 years it is my opinion that 4E is clearly superior.

Now you can say well, me playing the game designer 'card' is an appeal to authority - and you'd be correct. However, the very fact that you have come to my forums to discuss my products (past, present and future) indicates to me that at the very least you value my opinion and enjoy my ideas about gaming. As such, you, by the very act of being here lend weight to my opinion.

Your words remind me greatly of the words often spoken by fanatical converts to various religions or car salesmen.

Don't confuse enthusiasm with zealotry. I'm totally objective on the matter.

Can you offer any counterpoints that aren't purely opinion-based?

...where to start.

1. Class Design: 3E is unbalanced, 4E is balanced.
2. Game Design: Save or Die mechanic eradicated in 4E.
3. Game Design: 3E math is flawed leading to massive disparities between classes and monsters (always hitting, always missing etc.)
4. Game Design: Low Level Classes are not worryingly fragile anymore.
5. Monster Design: Vastly simplified in 4E by removing most of the superfluous feats, spell-like abilities and (to a lesser degree) skills and simply concentrating on what makes the monster unique - its special abilities.
6. Monster Design: Monster roles are a really simple addition that make putting together encounters far more rewarding.
7. Class Design: 4E allows all classes to contribute and each class has a plethora of options.
8. Game Design: 4E has much more tactical and engaging play, much of which is down to Move Actions and far more mobile combat, but also a lot of this is due to the focus upon groups of opponents rather than single monsters.
9. Game Design: Brilliantly Traps and Hazards are now balanced against monsters allowing the DM to integrate one for another.
10. Game Design: Artifacts are now totally different to other magic items.
11. Class Design: Multi-classing is totally balanced now.
12. Game Design: Epic gaming built-in as standard.
13. Monster Design: Monster ranks are a brilliant idea for allowing the juxtaposition of creatures and encounters without spiking the Challenge Rating and thus the math.
14. Class/Game Design: The ability of all characters to self-heal in a limited capacity removes the necessity of a Healer in the group.
15. Game Design: The whole 4E Level approach to formulating and balancing encounters is vastly superior to the old 3E Challenge Rating approach and can be tailored on the fly to groups of any size. Making my Challenging Challenge Ratings document thankfully redundant in 4E.
16: Game Design: Thankfully diminished reliance on magic items.
17. Game Design: Rituals taking responsibility for "off camera" moments.
18. Game Design: General trend in 4E shying away from giving permanent bonuses (which unbalance the game) to giving temporary benefits.
19. Game Design: Skill Challenges giving DMs a quick and simple social mechanic that everyone can contribute towards.
20. Game Design: Massively condensed level structure, which is very important when considering Immortal level play. Instead of catering for 200+ new levels, you only have to gear towards 20+ levels. Meaning that you get far more powers and monsters within a 10-level stretch of the game.

Those were the first 20 points off the top of my head.

Not meaning to be insulting,

As far as I can tell you haven't been insulting at all.

Though be careful when casting aspersions while hiding behind a veil of innocence. Its a tactic common in todays media allowing them to sling mud but keep their own hands squeaky clean. Especially when the reporter covers their tracks after making the allegation by later saying they disagree with it.

but I'm generally a "just the facts" kinda guy.

Thats interesting, because as BrokeAndDrive pointed out, your earlier post had many traits in common with a Fox News broadcast. I was waiting for you to post "Some people say Krusty is flip-flopping on the 3E-4E debate."

While I express my opinions, I try not to treat them as fact. I'm almost surprised that you almost seem to be shoving 4E down the collective throats of the masses.

I don't see how making a 4E book that people don't have to buy is tantamount to shoving anything down anyone's throat. Likewise me talking about my opinions on my own forums.

Pop-up adverts are akin to shoving something down your throat, I don't see the similarity between something intrusive like that and anything I am doing.

I hope I'm just reading too much into your statements, but that is how it comes across.

I apologise if thats how it seems to you, though I am sure opinions vary.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Thanks for the support BrokeAndDrive...I suspect I'll be okay.

Sometimes a healthy discussion is good for the soul.

Hey Rikandur matey!

Heh. I were forcing my players to abadon HP and treat damage in Mutants&Masterminds style for a while. Initially they complained a lot. And yes, they are 4ed skeptics up to include one disliker and one hater.

So the moral of the story is that sometimes change is good even if it doesn't initially look like it...?

U_K likes 4ed, a sentiment I, while admiring His hard work and great concepts, do not share. To me 4ed is a bit too MMORPGish.

To me, a good idea is a good idea regardless of its source.

Seen it, played it, bored with it. Thus my similiar treatment of 4ed.

It amazes me that you could get bored with 4E but not with 3E. For the majority of classes 3E seems far more boring to me, likewise for the majority of encounters 4E just seems far more interesting and involved. But no big deal amigo.

I can understand that people who frequent the Eternity Publishing forums loved the tinkering aspect of 3E. Although the more I work with 4E the more I see that its easily as customisable.

Thus, why not agree to disagree ? People ... if You want 3,5 stuff from U_K jou should help Him somewhat, not whine. Unfortuantely Reality have it's Abrogate firmly aimed at U_K so don't expects Miracles happening. Make them.

With minor exceptions* I don't plan any 3E stuff for the future though I will help in conversions to 3E of my material.

*The Revised Bestiary/Godsend hybrid; full art Ascension.

As for the really important question.
T-800, without weapons CR 8-10. I imagine this guy to be nigh-unstoppable without advanced firepower. Weaker fireballs wouldn't hurt it too. With futuristic weapons it is used to ? ... holy cow. +3 CR at least.

I think that the best baseline would be to create an Iron Guardian and then we could modify it from there.

T-1000, CR 14-16 since it is nearly indestructible. Would take multiple disintigrate spells to take down. Melting it down would take empowered & maximised firewall and irritiatingly long time, at the wery least.

Or you could just use my Mercury Guardian/Golem.

T-X, meh ... easier to damage than T-1000 but clearly superior in innate weaponry. 14-18 CR i think. It's plasma gun would take out wizards easily ... and then it would start getting ugly for party.

The Plasma Gun was neat, but its more to do with future weapons than the design itself. I wonder what Progress Level d20 Future accredits to something like Terminators?

Bow < X-Bow < Arquebus < Modern Rifle < Fusion Age < Gravity Age < Energy Age

1d8 < 2d6 < 2d8 < 4d6 < 4d8 < 8d6 < 8d8 < 10d10 < 15d10 etc.

Godzilla ... that's a monster ! I remember my wicked players transdimensional-porting it to Middle Earth campaign world. Just to get rid of it and second monster that were in a middle of sumo match in the center of some poor random city. And these fiends nicknamed it Hungrilla, for dragon-devouring habits.

 

[Deinos]

I'm glad you liked the superior half-dragons. Of the handful of IH material I've written, they're probably what I'm most proud of (possibly notwithstanding my write-up of Death).

Where/what are these? Or I guess I could search for them myself...

What does d20 Future say on the matter?

Not much. A robot is pretty much a robot. They're mainly just differentiated by size, a la elementals and 3.0 zombies/skeletons, and cannot be made intelligent. (Robots can only be intelligent if they look like living things. WTF?) Different armor types just give different armor bonuses.

The life-like robots are kinda cool as LA +0 construct races, though (they lose Constitution, immunity to crits, and bonus construct HP, but have all other construct traits. With the Wetware feat (basically for the seemingly alive robots of Rossum's Universal Robots, Blade Runner, etc.) they can use cybernetic implants, and in addition, they can use the really sweet robotic upgrade rules too... and they can be "resurrected" by salvaging their brain and putting it into a new body.

Finally, there are liquid state robots... but they're pitiful. They have fast healing 10, and that's about it... it even explicitly states there's no way for them to change color. Definitely would prefer using a modified version of your mercury golems there.

So PC robots are awesome (so long as you want to be a lifelike robot), but the NPC robot types need an overhaul.

As to cyborgs... they use entirely different rules from robots, which also use entirely different rules from mecha, whereas I personally think that a giant war robot, a giant war robot with a bit of human brain somewhere in it, and a giant war robot with a human pilot, should all have at least semi-similar stats.

But overall, I'd say fd20's rules for robot PCs, mechs, and starships are very awesome, but its rules for robots and cyborgs in general need work.

***

As to 3E vs 4E, my main issues with 4E IH stuff is summed up into two fields:

One: 3E epic levels is mainly just "ditto." 4E epic levels use all new powers. So that rather suggests 4E post-epic levels deserve all new powers...

Two: 4E doesn't really have rules for 3E style out of combat stuff. This isn't to say 4E is combat only, or to say 3E's out of combat stuff was well done... but there's nothing really to extrapolate leadership (for instance) from in 4E. In my opinion, a huge intriguing factor of 3E IH stuff is the existence of one's followers (for a deity) or of one's aperture real estate (for a tutelar). Phenomenal cosmic power, itty bitty living space.

Whereas any notion of having subservient/allied NPCs is really alien to 4E... the economy of actions is an important part of 4E, and that's good for balance I guess, but it rather means that either an important part of Immortals Handbook gaming will be left out for 4E, or it means things will get broken indeed. (Just having a handful of first level clerics handy, which most gods should have, means massive access to your own healing surges)

 

[Alzrius]

Where/what are these? Or I guess I could search for them myself...

The Superior Half-Dragon template was a monster entry I wrote for U_K's Design an Epic Monster competition back in 2008. You can find the specific post here.

Basically, this is a half-dragon template for all of the new epic dragons from the IH Bestiary, as well as the two epic dragons from the Epic Level Handbook. Also, it includes half-dragon options for two new epic dragons that Paradox42 posted in that same thread.

 

[paradox42]

T-1000, CR 14-16 since it is nearly indestructible. Would take multiple disintigrate spells to take down. Melting it down would take empowered & maximised firewall and irritiatingly long time, at the wery least.

Interesting that you peg it there; the monster I came up with for my own world (which I called a "Metal Slime" because it's what I figured a low-tech civilization that deals with oozes somewhat regularly would call a T-1000, and also because of the reference to the video game Dragon Warrior (1)- and damn those things were hard to kill in that game!) has a listed CR of 17. I hadn't reevaluated it since UK's CR system came on the Net, but it seemed about right when I used the critters in game. I may post those here later if I find the time.

The Superior Half-Dragon template was a monster entry I wrote for U_K's Design an Epic Monster competition back in 2008. You can find the specific post here.

Basically, this is a half-dragon template for all of the new epic dragons from the IH Bestiary, as well as the two epic dragons from the Epic Level Handbook. Also, it includes half-dragon options for two new epic dragons that Paradox42 posted in that same thread.

On this topic, did you ever get around to figuring out what the other ones I came up with in the 3.5E Nehaschimic Dragons thread would produce, as half-dragons? Just curious.

 

[Rikandur Azebol]

Aloha, U_K.

To me, a good idea is a good idea regardless of its source.

Here we agree, thus I steal those whenever I get chance and butcher them to fit my tastes.

It amazes me that you could get bored with 4E but not with 3E. For the majority of classes 3E seems far more boring to me, likewise for the majority of encounters 4E just seems far more interesting and involved. But no big deal amigo.

Simple, I'm "Tome of Battle" fanatical hater. And I got violent spasms when I see fighters acting like in video-game. "Ultimate Carrot Cut !"
There are things tolerable in videogame ... but for less restricted RPG i want more fluid options. 4ed is very similiar in design to ToB. Go figure.

I can understand that people who frequent the Eternity Publishing forums loved the tinkering aspect of 3E. Although the more I work with 4E the more I see that its easily as customisable.

I like Your design philosophy, too.

With minor exceptions* I don't plan any 3E stuff for the future though I will help in conversions to 3E of my material.
*The Revised Bestiary/Godsend hybrid; full art Ascension.

Ke, ke, ke ... *rubs his hands together*

I think that the best baseline would be to create an Iron Guardian and then we could modify it from there.

No good U_K, no good. Apart from sophiscated electronics/power sources T-800 is a simple design. Utterly doable in RL ... I think.

Iron Guardian is a hundreds of kilos of iron, animated and ready to give smackdown on 'u. Terminator would be pummeled to death. Terminators were designed to kill skuishy humans, not golems.

Or you could just use my Mercury Guardian/Golem.

Hm ... that one's closer, but Krusty ... Mercury golem doesn't have such sophiscated combat/adaptation programming.

Unless You enchant the thing properly, that is.

The Plasma Gun was neat, but its more to do with future weapons than the design itself. I wonder what Progress Level d20 Future accredits to something like Terminators?

Bow < X-Bow < Arquebus < Modern Rifle < Fusion Age < Gravity Age < Energy Age

1d8 < 2d6 < 2d8 < 4d6 < 4d8 < 8d6 < 8d8 < 10d10 < 15d10 etc.

Arquebus was certainly inferior to bows ... but I get general idea, U_K. As far as I had seen this Plasma Pistol of T-X, it wasn't extremely hot ... maybe 5d6 like weakest fireball.

Oneday I'll pull myself together and write this campaign down for You lot to have a reading. For now have the name "Bitterness of Fate". If only my players & co-DM's will finally write down the main points of their storylines. *sigh*

And it had to end in whimper.

 

[BrokeAndDrive]

Simple, I'm "Tome of Battle" fanatical hater. And I got violent spasms when I see fighters acting like in video-game. "Ultimate Carrot Cut !"
There are things tolerable in videogame ... but for less restricted RPG i want more fluid options. 4ed is very similiar in design to ToB. Go figure.

I actually prefer my warrior-types to be able to do more than "I hit it with my sword."

Level one:
Wizard: I put them to sleep, or shock their butt.
Cleric: I keep the undead away, and my friends alive.
Druid: I flank with my puppy and buffed quarterstaff.
Fighter: I hit it with my sword.

Level five:
Wizard: I make them go boom, or sow confusion with fog spells.
Cleric: I make everyone invincible, or make them go boom.
Druid: I also make them go boom, or turn into a wolf and bite them.
Fighter: I hit it with my sword.

Level ten:
Wizard: I summon demons and sow even greater chaos in the fight.
Cleric: I summon angels and blast and tank and crush and kill and destroy.
Druid: I summon monstars and blast and tank and crush and kill and destroy.
Fighter: I hit it with my sword. Twice.

Level twenty:
Wizard: I treat the battlefield like it's my personal chessboard, my "teammates" simple pawns, knights, and bishops, letting those mere mortals have their little victory by doing all the hard work.
Cleric: I call down the might of my god to eradicate everyone who looks at me sideways, then create new planes of existence for us to rest and relax after the fight.
Druid: I wildshape into a twenty-foot tall humanoid tornado and change the weather to rain acid and drop lightning and send armies of barkskin-buffed awakened dire polar bears.
Fighter: I hit it with my sword. Four times. Anytime I try to do anything more than this, I'm thwapped with the "broken/overpowered/powergamer/munchkin" stick. Pointing at what my teammates are doing doesn't seem to matter for some odd reason.

 

[Pssthpok]

I've found 4E to be far more... predictable than earlier editions, while earlier editions (namely 3.5) had less stability but much more swing.

That being said, 4E Essentials looks to be just the tonic I need to really get back to D&D again: more class diversity is a big draw for me, and the carbon-copy nature of class design/advancement (pre-PH3, of course) has been a real drag. That, and the new Red Box comes out on my birfday

 

[Rikandur Azebol]

I actually prefer my warrior-types to be able to do more than "I hit it with my sword."

I agree that Fighters need imagination ... I also alvays houseruled a bit with Fighters. Minor things like 4/lvl skill points or ACTUAL Epic Bonus Feats, at epic levels. To me 1 every odd level sounds about right.
And overall ... let me reply in kind.

Overall I alvays encouraged players to tinker with their classes. For example Duellist Fighter, based on Wuxia Movies:
Loses all armor proficiences.
Uses Dex instead of Str for weapon he focuses on.
Changes skill list slightly. Gains evasion and good Reflex save.
Gains dodge bonus to AC equal to 1/2 class levels, while wearing no armor.

Level one:
Fighter: I hit it with my sword.

I stab with my harpoon. Or push it off the cliff. I intimidate these goblins into fearful submission and play Brute Ogre/ Nice Guy with party's bard.

Level five:
Fighter: I hit it with my sword.

I throw pepper at necromancer's mouth when he starts casting ! I kiss the succubus until she faints. I shield the puny party members and trip ogre on it's kobold minions.

Level ten:
Fighter: I hit it with my sword. Twice.

I disarm it or trip it, and then I coup-the-grace it. I take Antimagic field and strangle the evil wizard. I tell cleric that I don't need healing today, my Greater Healing Surge suffices for scratches anyway. I boo this stupid demon until it whimpers and begs cleric for Atonement spell.

Level twenty:
Fighter: I hit it with my sword. Four times.

I win battles before even unsheating my sword. Everybody knows my name by this time, my succubus cohort takes bard levels to better spread my glory across planes. Cleric sermons me about value of life and tries to stop me from accepting all challenges to my martial prowness. Wizard complains when I use trinkets given to me from his jealous colleagues. I don't know why rogue gets everything she wants from people just by saying "Do You know my blood-brother Fred the Broken Sword ?"

All in all, I remember that during 2ed I played wizard who took proficiency in Unarmed combat ! And were impersonating "martial artist" with nothing but Tenser's Potions, Jump spell and nice bluffing.
In short, You don't need exordinary stats to pull all the tricks from above, just don't expect that, like punier charcter classes, all will be handed to You on silver plate. Cheat, think and win. And if You, as player, can't imagine such stuff ... invest in Intimidiate skill.

For power-themed characters it's better than diplomacy, and might help if You use it wisely.