What would WotC need to do to win back the disenchanted?

[Stormonu]

Last but not least. I am certain they are still reading General (I am sure that if they felt they needed info on PF, they could either go to the Paizo boards or say, ask their friends at Paizo). I just think they refrain from posting in such threads, because no matter what they say, they will be some of you guys who attack them to some degree. There always is. Among certain people there has long been some twisted false sense of entitlement vis-a-vis d&d and how they treat the people who work for WotC.

Seriously, nothing is worth how some of you are treating them. I am often ashamed. Sure the mods do some to protect them, but not enough by far, IMO.

Well, it's pretty easy to confirm at least someone at WotC is still watching ENWorld. Last week, Mearls posted a couple comments in a thread about what was being done with the essentials line (and I'm pretty sure it was in the general forum).

There was a time that it seemed WotC employees preferred announcing things on ENWorld instead of WotC's own boards - often people would direct threads to ENWorld about something that was posted there, grumbling that it had to be learned "second hand", instead of being announced on the WotC forums first. Perhaps since they've changed their own forum/site, they're posting more there nowadays (I wouldn't know, I refuse to go to the official WotC forums anymore - not because of WotC, but because of posters there; my ignore list was getting to big to be healthy).

 

[El Mahdi]

...I think you are missing the point. None of the things you are listing above will happen because Mearls or whoever is hanging out taking crap at ENworld...

...Seriously, nothing is worth how some of you are treating them. I am often ashamed. Sure the mods do some to protect them, but not enough by far, IMO.

I don't agree that they aren't incorporating ideas because they are taking crap here (at least I think that's part of what you said)...but you are 100% right in that they do take a lot of crap that they shouldn't have to. For the most part, I think those here at ENWorld aren't too bad, but there are some who are seriously disrespectful and entitled. It's too bad. I too wish that practice would cease. And like you, I also do not think the messages haven't gotten through. And I'm also sure you're right that WotC has their reasons. From here in the bleachers though, most of them just don't make sense (like the logic behind pulling pdf's).

All I know for sure is this: I would love to have access to 3E (and earlier editions) support through DDI - and I would spend good money for it. Unfortunately it doesn't exist. That's real money not going to WotC. From threads like this, I think it's pretty obvious I'm not the only one, that there's a fairly significant group of people and their money that WotC is not tapping...but could.

Why? I really have no idea, and can't for the life of me think of a logical reason for it. I'm either missing some crucial part of the puzzle, or WotC is making some foolish decisions...or both (probably an equal chance of both).

I don't buy into the disgruntledness over edition changes or even campaign world changes. They both have to evolve and change in order to have anything to sell. It's silly to get angry at WotC for doing that or expecting them not to change (and some do...not all, but some). If those changes aren't to my liking, I simply don't buy the products. However, even though I don't play 4E, and don't prefer it, I have bought some 4e products (namely the core books) and occasionally mine them for ideas. I have never begrudged WotC their right to make or alter their system, nor criticized their system or campaign world changes. In truth, I've complimented 4E for many aspects of the system right here on these boards. But regardless of all that, since I no longer have a reason to visit their website, or be involved in organized play events, I have virtually no exposure to their products anymore.

So, even if they started selling older edition products in electronic format, and I stopped purposely not-buying their products because of it, I am exposed to almost zero marketing for their products. I'm not going to seek them out. If they want my money, they need to give me a reason to come to the WotC website and see their products. There are products and services that as a customer I desire...and only WotC has the ability to produce them. But they won't. I don't understand this seemingly purposeful rejection or overlooking of an entire segment of potential customers. I don't take it personally (anymore), but I still don't understand it.

But anyways, as cool as ENWorld is, I don't think this place has the impact to convince WotC to not pursue a group of customers, solely because some here are blatantly insulting to them. So, other than taking a lot of crap that they shouldn't have to, why do you think WotC shouldn't go after these customers? What reasons do you think they have for this?

If the disrespect they endure is the main reason why you think they don't target these customers, then cool. I disagree with you...but it's cool. But if you think there are other reasons, I'd be interested in your point of view on this.

 

[El Mahdi]

...and he had to move back home to Outinthebooniestan...

I was deployed there once...

Man, it was HOT...but hey, at least it was a dry heat...

 

[I'm A Banana]

So, other than taking a lot of crap that they shouldn't have to, why do you think WotC shouldn't go after these customers? What reasons do you think they have for this?

For PDF's, I think the old "Copyright infringement makes people whose works can easily be copied idiotically paranoid and skittish" applies. If their stated reason of "OMG PIRATES OH NOES!" is the truth, then it's pretty clear they fell prey to that.

For DDI, I think the mantra more goes "This whole thing was kind of an experiment, and we weren't even sure we'd get 4e players to join up, and we're crazy behind on where we want to be, so while we might like to offer older edition stuff via searchable online database at some point in the future, theorietically, maybe, our hands are really full giving our current players what they want and were already promised, and that is, as I think you'd understand, our priority." That's rampant speculation, but given the state of the DDI currently, and the fact that rumors have whispered that the WotC crew got in some deep lava over spending on it, it sounds like a logical idea.

 

[BryonD]

If you say, "4e is geared towards making it easy for new players to get up to speed," that's a fair statement, I think.

If you say, "4e is geared towards new and casual players, but it is unsuitable for deep campaigns," you have an issue. You're back at tee-ball, or scuffed cards, or whatever analogy of the week you've chosen.

Ease of getting into a game has little bearing at all on the game's eventual depth... I don't think Mythus is a superior long-term game for deep campaigns, despite being intensely unfriendly to new players. There's no reason why a game can't be both approachable and easy to learn, and deep enough to provide experienced players with engrossing and enriching play.

-O

Well, by the same token, you are just proclaiming that you can have your cake and eat it to. In this case that most certainly hasn't been the result.

I don't claim any kind of all or nothing result. It would be silly and wrong for me to suggest that. But I'm not saying that. But it is just as silly and wrong to claim that no give and take exists in the modifications to 4E. And a lot of 4E fans are making that silly claim.

You can call my comparisons "analogy of the week" if you want. But that is a completely hollow response that does nothing to address that there is a real degree of truth to them.

Again, as I've said before many times, and at least twice in this thread, the standard response is to misrepresent what I've said.

There is a huge difference between "is unsuitable", which I never said, and "one things provides more support than the other", which I did say.

There is a difference between the two games. Andy described a root cause.
If you can't see it, then fine, you can't see it. It makes no difference to me.
But if you say it isn't then, then, quite simply, you are wrong.

And, this thread is about, what would it take for us to come back. That is the topic. If that offends you, don't read it. But I'm not going to pretend my tastes and expectations don't exist just because the game you prefer doesn't meet them.

 

[Mark CMG]

But I think you are blowing out of proportion the amount of goodwill they get from being here.

People generate goodwill in a messageboard community by how they post.

Seriously, nothing is worth how some of you are treating them. I am often ashamed. Sure the mods do some to protect them, but not enough by far, IMO.

Mods (ideally) treat everyone in the community equally.

For PDF's, I think the old "Copyright infringement makes people whose works can easily be copied idiotically paranoid and skittish" applies. If their stated reason of "OMG PIRATES OH NOES!" is the truth, then it's pretty clear they fell prey to that.

For DDI, I think the mantra more goes "This whole thing was kind of an experiment, and we weren't even sure we'd get 4e players to join up, and we're crazy behind on where we want to be, so while we might like to offer older edition stuff via searchable online database at some point in the future, theorietically, maybe, our hands are really full giving our current players what they want and were already promised, and that is, as I think you'd understand, our priority." That's rampant speculation, but given the state of the DDI currently, and the fact that rumors have whispered that the WotC crew got in some deep lava over spending on it, it sounds like a logical idea.

That's as reasonable an explanation as I've seen. Let's hope the prevailing sentiment to bring back lapsed gamers leads to devoting some resources toward making older edition PDFs available again in some manner.

 

[Obryn]

You can call my comparisons "analogy of the week" if you want. But that is a completely hollow response that does nothing to address that there is a real degree of truth to them.
...
There is a difference between the two games. Andy described a root cause.
If you can't see it, then fine, you can't see it. It makes no difference to me.
But if you say it isn't then, then, quite simply, you are wrong.

Have you found it kind of depressing and lonely to be the one with sole ability to view reality as it really is, and then having to explain it to all the peons without the burden of personal prejudices? It's gotta be a burden.

And, this thread is about, what would it take for us to come back. That is the topic. If that offends you, don't read it. But I'm not going to pretend my tastes and expectations don't exist just because the game you prefer doesn't meet them.

That's what the thread is about. That's not what you've been posting about.

-O

Mod Edit: The snark displayed in this post is the sort of thing that makes arguments worse, rather than better. Please, folks, don't go this route. Thank you.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Restore the old D&D magic system or something that captures the equivalent. I like magical variety and strategy. I like counterspells and using windwalls strategically. I like the variety of magic that gives caster players strategic options and encourages back and forth interplay between the players and DM when it comes to strategy. Each time a player comes up with a killer strategy, the DM must figure out how to counter it and vice versa. I want that type of magic system back.

 

[El Mahdi]

For PDF's, I think the old "Copyright infringement makes people whose works can easily be copied idiotically paranoid and skittish" applies. If their stated reason of "OMG PIRATES OH NOES!" is the truth, then it's pretty clear they fell prey to that.

For DDI, I think the mantra more goes "This whole thing was kind of an experiment, and we weren't even sure we'd get 4e players to join up, and we're crazy behind on where we want to be, so while we might like to offer older edition stuff via searchable online database at some point in the future, theorietically, maybe, our hands are really full giving our current players what they want and were already promised, and that is, as I think you'd understand, our priority." That's rampant speculation, but given the state of the DDI currently, and the fact that rumors have whispered that the WotC crew got in some deep lava over spending on it, it sounds like a logical idea.

That's as reasonable an explanation as I've seen. Let's hope the prevailing sentiment to bring back lapsed gamers leads to devoting some resources toward making older edition PDFs available again in some manner.

I'll echo Mark's sentiment. It sounds logical to me. Don't know if it's right, but it sounds logical. (Well, not a logical reason, but logical as far as that could be their reasoning.) Better than anything I've come up with, which is pretty much zilch.

I hope Mark is right also about this maybe happening in the future. Maybe the motivation behind the Essentials line portend just such a direction in the future. That would be very cool.

I wanted to pos-rep you for this, but apparently I just did a little while ago. I wanted to pos-rep Jack also but I apparently hooked him up in another thread earlier (as well as Mark also). It seems like it's all the same people I want to keep giving XP. Anyways, since I can't pos-rep any of you, I figured I'd post a comment before the people fighting in the thread get it shut down...

 

[Stormonu]

I do want to add that if WotC at some point rereleases older versions in some electronic form (PDF or whatever), I hope they hold them to a higher standard than the 1E/2E PDF releases. Both the 3E and 4E PDFs were very high quality, but some of the older ones (primarily 1E scans) were wretched.